Hello!

An E*****y C**** newbie here. I'm learning off Liam Montier's dvd which is great.

It was looking pretty good - but seems stickier and less successful now despite lots more practice.

Obviously I have lots more work to do, and I'm sure someone with more experience can perform with cards in any state- but should I be regularly changing the packet of cards I am using to practice with? Or does it make no difference at all?

Thanks!

Based on my experience with EC, I would say to a certain extent yes.

I use Bicycles and I found that after practicing with the same cards for quite a while my EC wouldn't be quite as smooth. The cards stuck together just a bit.

The corollary to that is that brand new cards are just a bit too slippery and I don't have as good control with the EC move.

There seems to be a bit of a sweet spot between "too new" and "too old"

Yes, less smooth is exactly it, they catch which is a big problem for the b**** p*** o** step.

Thank you. I will try with some others and see how I get on then.

I'm sure the issue is mainly mine - but want to give myself the best possible chance of success!

I would suggest you not practice with the provided cards. Just grab 3 red back cards and one blue back to practice EC from an old deck you have lying around. If you wish to practice a particular routine like "short attention spin" from the DVD Fractalicious by Montier and Bannon just grab any 5 cards and mark them with a sharpie "a, b, c, d and d, to represent the different back colors, on the backs and the faces to match the provided set" only you will see it as you practice and you get a feel for the right card being in the right place without harming the "performance set" at all.

Actually, John Bannon, in his book High Caliber, tells you to just mark cards like that to perform (on certain effects) if you don't have the fancy cards that come with the "stand alone" versions of the effect (usually costing $15 a $35 US) for a DVD and a set of needed cards.. I have also made up many sets for his effects using different decks I have collected through the years. But I practice with both marked up poor quality cards and marked up new quality cards (as it does make a difference where the moves are concerned). A couple years ago, I switched to Phoenix Brand and have made up almost all of Bannon's gaff sets from Phoenix cards. Most from combining different decks but a couple I had to do some custom card splitting (which is a great hobby of mine).

Before I got used to new decks of cards I practised with a stamp sponge to briefly (and very slightly!) dampen my fingers and then rub them together to create a quick tackiness. I first discovered this trick with spit when I wanted better grip on monkey bars at the playground - but that is a different story. =)

Practise will eventually allow you to EC with new cards; I think it took me about 3 weeks of daily practise to feel comfortable and make it completely automatic. Increasing the pressure of the pinch and dragging your inner-thumb joint over the kept-card a little during the BPO may help.

Thank you for the advice!

I was just using normal cards, but switching to newer ones has made the moves a lot more successful so thank you for that! I have been working them hard - so I must have lost the 'shininess' somehow.

I agree that eventually I need to be able to EC cards in any state. It just confused me that all of a sudden my technique had got worse.

I also never cracked the monkey bars - so good to have a tactic for that too

Yeah, I can remember this feeling when first learning the count; muscle memories take time. Hang in there.

Thanks. Will do.

On the other hand I am now unable to genuinely count four cards. I take this as progress!

lol

Poofs advice was very good.... I think he's addressing the fact that it can be a bit off-putting to people having to replace a packet trick very quickly if it has deteriorated in the process of learning/practicing the trick before hardly performing it live to anyone. I know that most of the time my cards lose their shininess and start to look a bit dirty and gruby by the time I have learnt the moves and just as importantly the patter & presentation that I am going to add to the trick.

So I follow poofs method and have done so for some years now; i.e I buy the trick and if it has multiple colours or is a db, I just use my cheap set of marker pens (non-sharpie) from the pound shop, to colour the reverse side or to write a value on the back of a card to convert it into a db. Please note that this is after I have bought the trick in the first place(!)
I've recently bought fractilious...Sarah, if you are a Liam Montier/Bannon/BBM fan (noticed you mentioned Liam in your post) you could try the above to get the moves down upteen times, and then switch to the supplied cards when you're ready.
Good luck.

Thanks for the props but they are seriously Bannon's idea from "High Caliber". I must wholeheartedly agree that the Fractalicious DVD and provided cards is an awesome value. I do own it for the simple reason that I wanted to see John and Liam perform, explain and go into greater detail of the thinking behind the effects. All but 2 (IIRC) are printed in High Caliber. I will most likely sell the dvd and the (Unused) gaff card set as I made up my own out of Phoenix brand cards and have watched the dvd till my eyes and ears bled (it is that good) Plus I do have all the routines that I will use from the dvd already in print (in the book).

When I really got the "Magic Bug" in the early 90's (crossing the threshold of an "entertaining guy who knew a few card tricks" to a "wannabe pro", Packet tricks were all the rage and I collected almost every one I could get my hands on. E&W effects would take my food money some weeks but I did not care. Twisted Sisters and Strangers Gallery blew me away (and I was fine with "non fractal stuff") UNTIL... Bannon came up with this idea of "Fractal Card Magic". Effects where the cards could be examined after the performance - and I really got hooked at that point. Also, through various VHS tapes I acquired over those formidable years, I found several "packet tricks" that only utilized regular cards from a regular deck ie... Twisting the Aces, Doc Daley's last trick, Bro John Hamman's "Twins"...

After that discovery, many... but not all of my Traditional "gaffed Packet Tricks" hit "Ye Ol Magic Drawer" to be replaced by more "pure, or Fractal effects" like Royal Scam, Duplicity (instead of twisted sisters) and the ever popular "Spin Dr" (as well as it's many variations from both High Caliber and Fractalicious). However, my very favorite opener when it comes to examinable packet tricks is one I learned from the Alex Elmsley books by L&L. "The 4 card Trick". It is a wonderful effect that plays very well (I have my own patter) and it has the history of it being the effect he came up with the "Ghost Count" to achieve (later to be re-named "The Elmsley Count" and I kind of get a very nostalgic feeling performing it (just knowing that history and how much that one sleight changed magic for years to come and made so many great effects possible.

Thanks everyone - great advice there which is very much appreciated! I really like idea of making your own cards as practice sets.

Yes I'm really enjoying the bbm dvds and working through Liam's projects - both of which have been great in getting me started.

Once I've mastered the EC could I go straight on to Fractalicious - or do I need some other skills first?

Thank you.

Id say keep practicing with the new cards. You can "learn the cards". As new, and when they and ware down to a sweet spot and when they are old. PuffDaddys input is always solid. I don't know the other guys but they too are not off point. I'd say just say practice. Pooff Daddy also makes a great point 3-red and 1-blue to practice. And no we are not related. Ha! db

Sarah, the move on Fractalicious is somewhat different to an EC but it is not more advanced (or barely so)... so if you've picked up how to do EC's or are well on the way to doing so you're at the level where you won't find this too difficult to do. This is certainly not advanced finger-flinging, I'd call it intermediate level.

Poof Daddy is absolutely right to give this work such high commendation because it is mind-blowing stuff. Bravo to Bannon for such great work and also to Liam for his additions & contributions.

You could move on to Fractalicious at any time. Not only will you see the Elmsley Count, you will learn OPEC (Out of Position Elmsley Count) and John Bannon's Bullet Party Count (which will come up in other effects in the future).