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Bill Cushman Inner circle Florida 2876 Posts 
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Rudy,
Isn't selling a book from which you use one of it's two moves "at least a dozen times a day," a bit underhanded? I know this is a controversial subject, but such an act smacks of opportunism to me. You buy a secret, master it, then sell it. This is VERY different from buying a prop, deciding it is not for you and then passing it on. What you are doing, unless I'm missing something, is good business for you but rotten for mentalsim as a whole. Not at all what Mr. Bellon intneded when he released such a limited edition. Bill |
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7th_Son Elite user Australia 437 Posts
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That's always going to happen when you overcharge.
I'm not agreeing with it, I'm just describing what happens if people don't feel they're getting value for money.
"Here's to our wives and girlfriends...may they never meet!" - Groucho Marx
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Bill Cushman Inner circle Florida 2876 Posts
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Quote:
On 2004-03-02 21:10, 7th_Son wrote: I know many of the purchasers of the original OO. Not a single one of them even remotely feels they were overcharged. Actually, quite the opposite; I've heard over and over that they wished it had been priced higher to keep it out of the hands of the merely curious. Your argument doesn't hold water. Obviously Rudy feels he got his moneys worth if he is performing it as often as he claims. This was a quality package, including both the book and the CD, which looked like a rare book to be coveted and treasured for years. And of course the agreement among the mentalism community about how fantastic the moves are is even more important. Do you have OO 7th Son and if so, do you feel you were ripped off? Bill |
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7th_Son Elite user Australia 437 Posts
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Bill,
You misinterpreted my post. I'm not saying OO is not value for money. I was explaining why some people might try and sell books after they've read them. The more they feel a product is overpriced, the more likely they'll sell it.
"Here's to our wives and girlfriends...may they never meet!" - Groucho Marx
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BonzoTheClown Regular user 176 Posts
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OO was far from overpriced when it was released at around $60.
Only 100 copies were produced, and each copy was numbered. Those that have sold their copy have done it for one of two reasons: Historically, they have fetched $350 EBay, It can be easily argued that this is still worth it for the working mentalist and OO provides two very useful 'tools'. If another was to ever go up for sale I would not be at all surprised if they reached over $400. Also those who realized mentalism wasn't as easy as they thought. I would suspect that a vast majority who bought OO still have their copy and are unlikely to ever part with it. I have only ever seen two or three copies ever been put up for sale since it was published. OO is one of the finest contributions ever made to our field. Marc Climens |
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Bill Cushman Inner circle Florida 2876 Posts
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7th Son,
It was your statement, "That's always going to happen when you overcharge," that confused me. I think I get where you are coming from now, so please accept my apology. I'm still not comfortable with Rudy selling his, given his obvious appreciation and use of the techniques. Rudy, are you out there? Am I misinterpreting you as well? I hope so, as I don't get where you are coming from otherwise. Marc, just a quick "bravo" and "ditto" Bill |
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Gianni Special user WILMINGTON, DE 993 Posts
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Quote:
On 2004-03-02 19:09, Bill Cushman wrote: I usually stay out of these "Is this ethical?" conversations, but this position startles me. If you buy a book or a video and regularly use one of the effects, are you unethical for selling the book/video? Seems this is completely acceptable standard practice. Gianni |
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brownbeauty Regular user 112 Posts
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Hello Bill,
Sorry to take so long to respond to your post. I have been traveling and haven't had access to the internet. I don't believe selling anything I have duplicates of or that I no longer need should cause anyone any problem. I have owned 4 copies of OO and I have sold 3 of them for a profit! I love the technique and I use it for associates and customers daily! I wasn't lucky enough to buy directly from Mr. Bellon and I have no idea what he intended when he sold his books! I came across these books through various means. People selling decided they no longer needed their copies and I, being the opportunist that I am, made good buys! I certainly don't need 4 copies! Am I selling to just anyone? NO! Everyone that I have sold the copies to were serious and dedicated to our art. I believe all my buyers were from "the magic Café." So, there you have it! I know my answer is not what you wanted to hear but it's the truth! By the way, any chance that you want to sell your copy? 
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BonzoTheClown Regular user 176 Posts
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Quote:
Everyone that I have sold the copies to were serious and dedicated to our art. I believe all my buyers were from "the Magic Café." So, there you have it! ROFLMAO Marc Climens |
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MichaelSibbernsen Special user Omaha, NE 513 Posts
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Quote:
If you buy a book or a video and regularly use one of the effects, are you unethical for selling the book/video? Without passing judgment, I will say that many people feel very strongly that if you use material of others, you should "own the rights" by owning the book/video it originated from. Once it is sold, you give up these rights. Continuing to use the material is paramount to stealing. This is a personal ethical decision. I know how I feel. MS |
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Kenguru Loyal user Hungary & Israel 273 Posts
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I feel that way (or actually think like this). If not, what is the different between the following two?:
- Buying, learning the "secret" and then selling it - Having a friend tell you the "secret" You don't only buy the "secret", you buy the rights to use it. Just my opinion.  All right then. I'll go to hell. (Mark Twain) |
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Bill Cushman Inner circle Florida 2876 Posts
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Via a communication with the author, he certainly is not happy with the cavalier attitude represented by those who defend reselling the material after mastering it. But, hey, he only wrote the book. What does his opinion matter? If he wanted to limit OO to 100 editions that is his problem. Sigh.
And another thought re: "I have owned 4 copies of OO and I have sold 3 of them for a profit! I love the technique and I use it for associates and customers daily! I wasn't lucky enough to buy directly from Mr. Bellon and I have no idea what he intended when he sold his books!" Yeah, right! Alain limited the release to 100 copies just so you could profiteer from the efforts of his artistic endeavor. Give it a rest and just acknowledge that you are taking advantadge of the situation regardless of the express and obvious wishes of the author. At least then, you will be honest about your lack of integrity. Marc, Please define: ROFLMAO Thanks, Bill P.S. I think this will be my last post on this thread. |
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MichaelSibbernsen Special user Omaha, NE 513 Posts
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Hi Bill,
ROFLMAO= Rolling On the Floor Laughing My (posterior body part reference deleted) Off. |
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Bill Cushman Inner circle Florida 2876 Posts
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One last post to say thank you Michael. As always, you are a source of knowledge and demonstrating standards to live up to.
Bill |
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brownbeauty Regular user 112 Posts
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[quote]On 2004-03-04 04:14, Bill Cushman wrote:
And another thought re: "I have owned 4 copies of OO and I have sold 3 of them for a profit! I love the technique and I use it for associates and customers daily! I wasn't lucky enough to buy directly from Mr. Bellon and I have no idea what he intended when he sold his books!" Yeah, right! Alain limited the release to 100 copies just so you could profiteer from the efforts of his artistic endeavor. Give it a rest and just acknowledge that you are taking advantadge of the situation regardless of the express and obvious wishes of the author. At least then, you will be honest about your lack of integrity. Hello Bill, Wow! You are a feisty one! I feel better knowing that the magic/mentalism world is a far safer place with you policing it! Thank you for contacting the author and letting him know all about this most very important matter! I enjoy reading most of your posts, you seem very knowledgeable and I hold no grudges! You have your opinion and I have mine! Now, about that copy you own..... |
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mysticz Special user D.C. metro area 680 Posts
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Quote:
On 2004-03-04 10:17, brownbeauty wrote: I believe the magic/mentalism world is a far better place with concerned mentalists like Bill Cushman in it. Important secrets of our craft should be protected, not sold indiscriminately for easy profit. IMO, the mentalist community would do well to keep the good stuff underground. Way underground!!! Joe Z.
Joe Zabel
"Psychic Sorcery" There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. -- Shakespeare's Hamlet I.v. 174-175 |
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espmagic Special user 979 Posts
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Well, perhaps brownbeauty will sell so many that he will be able to eventually just "tell" me the secret, since I cannot afford the high prices that OO is garnering.
I have been selling everything I own so that I can do extensive research into billet work (including portions of my soul, it seems - and renting the wife out, but only at good rates! <grin>) and OO is the only manuscript that I have heard so many excellent things about, but cannot locate a copy. Obviously, with noted exceptions, those who have it want to keep it... |
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Bill Cushman Inner circle Florida 2876 Posts
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Thanks Joe! I appreciate your stepping in and covering my back.
The Feisty One |
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TheMagicalMan Loyal user 238 Posts
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I've been a serious Mentalism student for over a year now and preparing my 1st mentalism show. I have gotten many DVDs not books of the classic Mentalism material. Till now I kinda avoid "THE PEEK" since I don't know which DVD can teach it well, as it is found in books and I'm not sure about the DVDs (I prefer the visualness of the DVDs).
I went back to searching for it. I might have it in some DVD I forgot about. Is it any of Richard Osterlind's material ? I'm not talking about a billet switch, I mean a billet peek where the spectator gets to hold on to it or in thier pockets folded or so. I have seen some exmaples of peeks by modern Mentalists like Peter Turner, Collin Mcleod or so.... But I'm searching for the original version. So may anyone please guide me to the source ? Thanks. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts
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Another old thread that should have originally been posted in Inner Thoughts.
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Posted: Mar 3, 2004 12:09 am 
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