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R.S.
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On Mar 23, 2016, RNK wrote:
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On Mar 22, 2016, R.S. wrote:
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On Mar 22, 2016, LobowolfXXX wrote:
He'd leave their assets frozen, obviously.


And do nothing about reducing their nuclear weapons manufacturing capability? Just let them continue unchecked?

PS - and no, not obviously.

Ron


Sorry, but I don't put trust in a country whose leadership chant Death To America! You obviously do.


No, I don't. And that's why this deal is a good one, because trust has NOTHING to do with it! And if we've gotten this far and you still can't grasp this basic concept, then I suggest you perhaps take a break from this thread. Repeating the same things without regard to facts is a dead-end. But perhaps that's all you've got at this point.

PS - You still haven't said what you would do about countries who use rhetoric we don't like.

Ron
"It is error only, and not truth, that shrinks from inquiry." Thomas Paine
landmark
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On Mar 22, 2016, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Http://m.state.gov/md4797.htm#treaty


???

From your link, italics mine:

"At this time a shift of Soviet interest to a ban that did not deal with underground tests emerged, although the Soviet Union had rejected an Anglo-American proposal for an agreement of this kind the year before. Premier Khrushchev disclosed this in a speech on July 2, 1963, when he called for an agreement outlawing tests in the atmosphere, in outer space, and under water -- environments where both sides agreed their existing verification systems could adequately police a ban.

The three-power meetings began on July 15. The long years of discussion had clarified views and greatly reduced areas of disagreement, and a Treaty was negotiated within 10 days. "

So it was the resolution of verification issues that led directly to acceptance of the treaty by both sides after long years of negotiation.
LobowolfXXX
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I believe that the existence of verification systems was not a reference to inspections, but to the fact that nuclear tests were detectable scientifically (a key difference between agreeing to discontinue nuclear testing as opposed to nuclear development).
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
magicalaurie
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How does one develop, ie. progress, without testing ? Produce, perhaps. Develop...? Again we're dealing with the wonderful English language, so...

"some experimentation and testing along the way is necessary to demonstrate the behavior of the non-nuclear components including the firing set, detonators, and neutron generators. If there is not to be a full-yield nuclear test, then the non-nuclear experiments must be carried out with greater care and competence."

http://fas.org/nuke/intro/nuke/test.htm
magicalaurie
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And there seems to be an allowance of underground testing.

Key, I think to the divisive nature of human "society": pretending the ground is separate from the ocean, the atmosphere, outer space, the universe...
LobowolfXXX
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On Mar 23, 2016, magicalaurie wrote:
How does one develop, ie. progress, without testing ? Produce, perhaps. Develop...? Again we're dealing with the wonderful English language, so...

"some experimentation and testing along the way is necessary to demonstrate the behavior of the non-nuclear components including the firing set, detonators, and neutron generators. If there is not to be a full-yield nuclear test, then the non-nuclear experiments must be carried out with greater care and competence."

http://fas.org/nuke/intro/nuke/test.htm


The Trinity test was the first of its kind, and it succeeded, so it seems that a nuclear weapon can be developed without being tested.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
magicalaurie
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The Trinity test, you say?
LobowolfXXX
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That's right. The one that took place after a working nuclear bomb was developed, I say.
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Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
landmark
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Bad example. No one was looking for it. Or knew what to look for. Or how to look.

Were you also against Nixon's SALT 1 treaty?
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On Mar 24, 2016, landmark wrote:
Bad example. No one was looking for it. Or knew what to look for. Or how to look.

Were you also against Nixon's SALT 1 treaty?



Are you talking about Trinity being a bad example, or the Test Ban Treaty?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
landmark
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Trinity.
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Trinity was brought up for the very specific purpose of showing, contrary to Lauroe's suggestion, that a nuclear weapon can be developed without being tested. I think it serves that purpose well.

Your own exam of the Test Ban Treaty, on the other hand, was (respectfully) less well chosen, as it did not rely on inspections, the original issue in response see to which you brought it up. The nuclear detente between the US and Russia was not based on the success of inspections; it was based on rational people not wanting themselves and their countrymen to die. That's obviously less of a deterrent to a great number of influential people in various Middle Eastern countries nowadays.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
magicalaurie
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Considering effect produced, your point's a fair one, I think, Lobo. I think my point's a fair one, too. Trinity is considered a test. I suggested a nuclear weapon could be produced without testing, but that to develop might require testing. Tests continued after the Trinity test. Why's that?



"Until the atomic bomb could be tested, doubt would remain about its effectiveness."

"A test of the plutonium bomb seemed vital, however, both to confirm its novel implosion design and to gather data on nuclear explosions in general."

"Trinity test meant that both types of bombs -- the uranium design, untested but thought to be reliable, and the plutonium design, which had just been tested successfully -- were now available for use in the war against Japan."

https://www.osti.gov/opennet/manhattan-p......nity.htm
landmark
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The nuclear detente between the US and Russia was not based on the success of inspections; it was based on rational people not wanting themselves and their countrymen to die.

If it were just that, then there would have been no need for that treaty or any other; MAD would have taken care of all. But in fact, even that limited Test Ban Treaty significantly lessened Cold War tensions and made the world that much safer.

Quote:
That's obviously less of a deterrent to a great number of influential people in various Middle Eastern countries nowadays.

The calculations of the actors in the Middle East are just as rational as those of the US and Soviets were. Suicide missions and dying for your country/cause are nothing new. And no government anywhere or anytime has taken actions to knowingly destroy itself.
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I really don't understand your doubling down on the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty. You brought it up to support the notion that, contrary to my suggestion, inspections were an effective means of preventing nuclear conflict. That treaty contained NO provision for inspections. Period. So whether or not it significantly lessened Cold War tensions and made the world safer (which I don't dispute) is irrelevant to the issue of inspections.

As for the last sentence, you may be right; however, religious leaders in the Middle East have a great deal of influence, so while I would agree that governments don't knowingly destroy themselves, that observation doesn't tell the whole story. I don't recall many Cold War suicide missions.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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