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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Behavior is real. Claims of belief, the text, are real. Demonstrating a correspondence... Waste of computation. See blindsight/ecopraxia discussion. The Peter Watts stories Ambassador and Bulk Food argue that position in context. They are online, freely available as are Aristotle's ethics and Plato's Republic. There's a guy who put the status quo question up for discussion. Care to add to that discussion?
If you don't like the behavior/utilitaran/realpolitk theory it's up to you to Prove otherwise. Test/do/compare to theory are expensive activities. Learned helplesness... Behaviorism. Score that in the 'against" category. Who says you get to play outside the box? One poster here even argued against fiction in political discourse. Funny that, as yours truly had just read that book from 1926 by the guy who almost conquered the western world. If you can't convince yourself then what possible reason would anyone else have? You're in the water. convince the fisherman that you're something more beneficial than food. This line in the news today "they need their medicine to be a good parent", story on marijuana in The Guardian.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On Feb 1, 2016, tommy wrote: Transmitting text is an action. What happens upon receipt? What do you call the act of transmitting non-value messages? Does this lab coat make me look PhD? Pollution. From about the time of the movie Species* there's been some reflection upon that matter in our literature. Mercury's mischievous messages? *others receive our message as plea and send back helpful design data.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Almost half a century since Chomsky dismantled Skinner's arguments:
https://chomsky.info/19711230/
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
JT wrote:
Quote:
Learned helplesness... Behaviorism. Sorry, but you don't have the keys to the master encyclopedia that matches behavior with belief. Talk with people and you might be surprised to find out why they act the way they do about certain beliefs. That's some more data for you. Conscious and unconscious, internal and external factors, all affect behavior. To say that you can backwardly predict belief from behavior is to postulate it's a one-to-one function. It's not. If you really loved me, you would buy me a pony.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Huh? No claim to cross reference from my side - I called it unproductive computing.
Behavior is real. Text signals are real. Presuming more... entertainment. One can interpret the learned helplessness condition through behaviorism. The procedures to elicit and extinguish that condition are behavioral. Does it really mater if your pie in the sky is cherry rather than apple...think of dinner on the table...feel better now? Already posted about reading Chomsky and Eco...your turn to read Watts. Sources cited. Counter or concede. We seem to agree that words and actions need not be congruent. More iterative computing, game theory, unproductive. Again, nicely argued by Watts in blindsight with the captured starfish. See Swift about a horse. 😁
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
You've argued in the climate change thread that if people really believed in it, they would have acted in ways X, Y, Z. My comments are in reference to that hypothesis.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Fine landmark, same as drug legality... all about respect for self, feedback, social norms...ideas.
I'm arguing the position that behavior is primary and modeling internal reality is a distraction. Action includes transmitting text - behavior. I'm claiming that observed conditions demonstrate local reality. For example if I type the string Reggie or inrlgge in a different order I will find asterisks instead. Inferred rules. No need to imagine what goes on in the box. If you'd like to argue for things like self, rights, freedom,... sounds good... Please do. Local behavior appears consistent with a different model. What would convince a stranger? What would persuade a younger NYCTwister or anyone else? If you can't persuade you're down to compel. See that book from 1926.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Jon, we live under compulsion every day. The objective truth is that right now you and I have very little say in what social conditions we live under. We live under a worldwide economic system that does not allow us to live without compulsion. That is our present condition. Subjects of compulsion.
Throughout history people have made attempts to shape their reality. Hitler as well as Gandhi. There are moral choices to be made. Yes, Hitler's mileage may vary. That's the work of being human. I would have to know you much better to know what would persuade you, or any particular acquaintance or stranger. In general, though, the strategy is to leverage the other's belief system and show Person X either how 1) stated belief A of Person X contradicts their stated belief B; 2) show how action C would further Person X's belief in D; or 3) to show how not acting on belief E will result in the undesirable action F. Statements most say they believe: All people are created equal... Do unto others... Might should not make right... Murder is wrong... Of course as we build the Great Border Wall around the Statue of Liberty, cognitive dissonance will kick in. Some can live with it, but the hope is that some will eventually crack, and let the contradiction come to light.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Never mind all that petty stuff. Somebody must be sacrificed to save the world before it's too late.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
And how would that look to the folks watching at home?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Quote:
On Feb 1, 2016, tommy wrote: As if millions have not already been sacrificed so that you can have your markets "free."
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
But the sign says billons and billions served... what's it gonna take?
And how would folks watching from afar know we figured out what the war was about?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Quote:
But the sign says billons and billions served It's a cook book!
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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NYCTwister Loyal user 267 Posts |
Quote:
On Feb 1, 2016, Jonathan Townsend wrote: I disagree. Demonstrating the correspondence AND holding those with those beliefs responsible for the consequences of the actions taken due to those beliefs is critical. The weight of numbers and claims of persecution make that critical conversation impossible. You said before that the subjective is and it makes the necessary objective factors impossible. If, as I think, beliefs inform morality and morality informs actions then...... If what dictates the morality grants inherent superiority then the necessary objective factors needed for universal fairness becomes impossible. If you can invoke subjective factors at whim, and use them to claim the ability to ignore the objective, rationality and reason become impotent, and chaos ensues. Quote:
There's a guy who put the status quo question up for discussion. Care to add to that discussion? That would be me. When you speak of the status quo you have to be both willing and able to examine how it came about, and why it persists. When the status quo, based on the irrational, is entrenched and powerful change becomes almost impossible. You're left with waiting for the effects of attrition born from the observation of cause and effect. We have that attrition now, but it's a slow process. Do we have enough time? Quote:
If you don't like the behavior/utilitaran/realpolitk theory it's up to you to Prove otherwise. I do like them, but if then premises they are based on are inherently flawed then...... Quote:
Test/do/compare to theory are expensive activities. So? We have the money to waste and besides it's what we use, or should, to learn everything new. Quote:
Learned helplessness... Is what you get when you accept knowledge without thought and replace your judgment with the group mind. If your lazy premise is that the group is so large that it must be right then your premise is flawed, and the joke is on you. You also get a society where a large percentage of college students think that Judge Judy sits on the SCOTUS. Quote:
Who says you get to play outside the box? What choice do you have if the box is full of poison and rational self interest is your highest value? If rational self interest is NOT your highest value then you can be very dangerous to those around you. Quote:
If you can't convince yourself then what possible reason would anyone else have? I have convinced myself. As for the vast majority that disagree, or need to say they do, then horses, water and the refusal to drink...and all you can do is point to the water until reasons dictates that you move on to the younger horses and hope. When reason is reduced to hope then you get sad irony. Quote:
You're in the water. convince the fisherman that you're something more beneficial than food. If the fisherman have the biggest boats and nets, and the resources to maintain both, plus more food than they can ever need then my value as food or anything else is inconsequential.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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NYCTwister Loyal user 267 Posts |
Quote:
On Feb 1, 2016, landmark wrote: I've asked you before, if not capitalism then.....what? I understand looking at the effects and condemning the system ,but if you can't suggest a viable alternative then what good the condemnation?
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
I assert we currently live in a society where much great cause/effect have been insulated, at great cost to many. Where the phrases nothing personal, just doing my job, its not illegal and business is business work in place of conscience.
Good is that which is rewarded. Bad is that which is punished. Do you disagree or have better definitions? Other possible models are ... explored elsewhere. What do you suggest?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
@nyctwister - rational self interest was explored by Nash and there are stories to tell. More generally, we have literature to cite when discussing notions. Plato's Republic, Aristotle's Ethics, Hobbes Leviathan, Smiths Theory of Moral Sentiments / ...Wealth of Nations, ...and recent fiction by authors looking at consequences we might encounter going down some paths.
If you want to build upon the work of elders... it can't hurt to reference the things you want to change back to the founding documents. Disagree with then, there, now, for who? War on ignorance.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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NYCTwister Loyal user 267 Posts |
I agree with the definitions but they've been contaminated, largely from the subjectivity.
Look at popular culture - ignorance is celebrated, fame and infamy have become synonymous. Self esteem gained by comparison to fools. Coddling fragile psyches made fragile by coddling. To go further might find one on vacation so to continue elsewhere (PM) would only serve a purpose if you disagree with the premise.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
I believe any act of observation and measurement is subjective. How much variance between here and there, you and me...i don't know. I don't recall knowing how to type or spell till years after being born...maybe in general people learn new things including skills. That, in my opinion, makes finding some object, Newton type, basic agreements about things and expectations a crucial matter.
Maybe tomorrow we'll know about late tonight's news. For now it's outside our (mine maybe not yours) available information. If we agree on the old books so far can we add Aristotle on logic so we can have deductions and inferences?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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NYCTwister Loyal user 267 Posts |
To me it's not what we learn from the old books, but what we disqualify that's most important.
What remains may always be useful but should never be above interrogation. The teacher who plateaus and stops doing. The harmful status quo thrives when things not proven are held sacred, often by force and fear, even in the face of new knowledge. Scientism? Maybe by those who managed to pass sixth grade science and only climbed part way up the mountain. Knowledge held sacred, in stasis, by the fearful who need to assert an unearned equality. Maybe not equally dangerous, but dangerous nonetheless. How much do con men really need to know?
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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