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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Researcher illegally shares millions of science papers free online to spread knowledge (12 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Magnus Eisengrim
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It's theft. I have little sympathy for rapacious academic publishers. But that doesn't justify theft.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
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Good! I have little sympathy for the Sheriff of Nottingham.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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JoeJoe
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You are correct Magnus: Elsevier is profiting off the research they steal from the researchers.

Quote:
the academic publishing situation is different to the music or film industry, where pirating is ripping off creators. "All papers on their website are written by researchers, and researchers do not receive money from what Elsevier collects. That is very different from the music or movie industry, where creators receive money from each copy sold," she said.




To put it another way, imagine if you wanted to make a DVD of your magic act ... and the only way to do so way to pay Elsevier to "publish" your DVD ... and after you pay them to "publish" your DVD, they keep all the profits they make selling it.

So who is stealing from whom??

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tommy
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I would like to see what experiments Monsanto have been up to in Brazil

http://www.naturalnews.com/052943_Zika_v......oes.html
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On Feb 13, 2016, JoeJoe wrote:
You are correct Magnus: Elsevier is profiting off the research they steal from the researchers.


This is nonsense. Researchers voluntarily submit papers for publication. Elsevier is one of many publishers. There are also an increasing number of "open access" journals.

I don't like Elsevier, but they are not in any way stealing research.

Quote:
the academic publishing situation is different to the music or film industry, where pirating is ripping off creators. "All papers on their website are written by researchers, and researchers do not receive money from what Elsevier collects. That is very different from the music or movie industry, where creators receive money from each copy sold," she said.




To put it another way, imagine if you wanted to make a DVD of your magic act ... and the only way to do so way to pay Elsevier to "publish" your DVD ... and after you pay them to "publish" your DVD, they keep all the profits they make selling it.

So who is stealing from whom??

-JoeJoe [/quote]

Again, researchers voluntarily submit papers where they choose to do so. There is no coercion.

1. Almost all academic research is done by people who are paid to research. Why should they expect to get paid a second time for the research they were paid to do?

2. Most research (in the West, at least) is funded by grants. When the researcher applies for the grant, publication and conference publication are among the "deliverables" the researcher promises.

While funders could stipulate open source publication or some such, they don't.

Stealing from a company you don't like is still stealing.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
tommy
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I wonder if any geo engineering secret expedients revealed that will explain the strange weather and the like.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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JoeJoe
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No - researchers are required to publish their material so it can be peer-reviewed. Until their work is published, it is worthless to everyone including themselves.

To put it another way again: the only way you would be allowed to do a magic show is if you paid Elsevier to publish your DVD first ... and after you paid them to do so, they kept all the money made from your DVD ... rendering your magic show worthless anyway, because everyone else has already paid Elsevier for it. A mafia style extortion racket.

Ultimately, it is about the money ... money or research?? Because that is what we are talking about ... the cure for Polio was given away for free, and unlike most cures sold today it actually worked.

-JoeJoe
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Magnus Eisengrim
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What are you saying "No" to, JoeJoe?

BTW have you ever published academic research? Or been awarded a research grant?
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
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Conditional research grants from the Rockefeller foundation?
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magicfish
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She should be arrested and prosecuted.
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I am saying I agree with Alexandra Elbakyan that Elsevier's business model is an illegal money racket. Your statement that the researcher is paid to do the research doesn't change that, it only means Elsevier is stealing from whoever paid the researcher.

Further, in order for science to come up with cures for diseases, the research must be shared so it can be peer-reviewed and verified. The idea of hiding scientific research that affects every single human being on Earth is unethical on multiple levels.

For example, what if your doctor had you taking a cancer drug and the research that shows this drug does not work is not made available to your doctor?? Are you willing to die in order to protect Elsevier's money?? I'm not.

-JoeJoe
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If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On Feb 13, 2016, JoeJoe wrote:
I am saying I agree with Alexandra Elbakyan that Elsevier's business model is an illegal money racket. Your statement that the researcher is paid to do the research doesn't change that, it only means Elsevier is stealing from whoever paid the researcher.

Further, in order for science to come up with cures for diseases, the research must be shared so it can be peer-reviewed and verified. The idea of hiding scientific research that affects every single human being on Earth is unethical on multiple levels.

For example, what if your doctor had you taking a cancer drug and the research that shows this drug does not work is not made available to your doctor?? Are you willing to die in order to protect Elsevier's money?? I'm not.

-JoeJoe


Illegal? How so?

I don't like the way it works, either. But our dislike of something doesn't make it illegal.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
JoeJoe
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Quote:
On Feb 13, 2016, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Illegal? How so?

I don't like the way it works, either. But our dislike of something doesn't make it illegal.


Because the researcher (or company paying the researcher) does not get paid for their research that Elsevier then sells.

Again, that would like requiring you to pay Elsevier to publish and review your magic act ... and then Elsevier selling your act without paying you for it. Just like your act is not their act to sell, it is not their research to sell; they are stealing it from the researchers.

And it is not a question of if I like it or dislike it, nor is it a question of if it is legal or illegal; it is a violation of the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights.

-JoeJoe
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Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On Feb 13, 2016, JoeJoe wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 13, 2016, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Illegal? How so?

I don't like the way it works, either. But our dislike of something doesn't make it illegal.


Because the researcher (or company paying the researcher) does not get paid for their research that Elsevier then sells.


As I said above, the researcher VOLUNTARILY submits the paper. There is no theft.

And as I said above, the researcher usually is paid to conduct research, with publication part of the expectation.

There is no theft. None.

Quote:
Again, that would like requiring you to pay Elsevier to publish and review your magic act ... and then Elsevier selling your act without paying you for it. Just like your act is not their act to sell, it is not their research to sell; they are stealing it from the researchers.


Except that researchers are not required to publish with Elsevier (I never have.) There are other choices.

Quote:
And it is not a question of if I like it or dislike it, nor is it a question of if it is legal or illegal; it is a violation of the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights.

-JoeJoe


So this is a change of heart. Just a few minutes ago you said that Elsevier was acting illegally. Glad to see you've changed your tune on that.

As for the UN Declaration of Human Rights, you've got me curious. Which article(s) of the Declaration do you believe that Elsevier (or any other academic publisher) is violating?
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
tommy
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First there is sympathy, then there is no sympathy, then there is
The lock upon my garden gate's a snail, that's what it is.
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Quote:
On Feb 13, 2016, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
As I said above, the researcher VOLUNTARILY submits the paper. There is no theft.


FALSE - the researcher's research MUST be published so it can be peer-reviewed and verified.



Quote:
On Feb 13, 2016, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Except that researchers are not required to publish with Elsevier (I never have.) There are other choices.


This is another choice created by the very researchers that are having their research stolen. The author's comparison to Pirate Bay is inaccurate in that it is the researchers themselves running this site, not a third-party profiteering middleman.



Quote:
As for the UN Declaration of Human Rights, you've got me curious. Which article(s) of the Declaration do you believe that Elsevier (or any other academic publisher) is violating?


I'm just curious too - did you actually bother to read the article?? Because if you had you wouldn't need to ask me this question. Smile



-JoeJoe
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Magnus Eisengrim
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She makes the claim that "everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits".

Do you actually believe that this justifies theft?

Why stop at academic research? If the argument is valid, then there can be no justification in charging fees for movies, plays, music, museums, magic shows...

You seem to want to protect your magic show, while agreeing with this silly interpretation of article 27.

of course, she prevaricates with

Quote:
She also explains that the academic publishing situation is different to the music or film industry, where pirating is ripping off creators. "All papers on their website are written by researchers, and researchers do not receive money from what Elsevier collects. That is very different from the music or movie industry, where creators receive money from each copy sold," she said.


But how this is relevant to the claim that "everyone has a right to participate..." is beyond comprehension. If people have a right to the articles, it can't be contingent on how much the creator gets paid.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
JoeJoe
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It is not her "claim" or a "silly interpretation" - it is an exact quote from the actual Declaration. Again, do your own research.

-JoeJoe
Amazing JoeJoe on YouTube[url=https://www.youtube.com/user/AmazingJoeJoe]
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