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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Researcher illegally shares millions of science papers free online to spread knowledge (12 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Dannydoyle
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YOU have no clue the terms you bandy about. You say "peer reviewed" and yet have deonstrated in this very thread you have NO CLUE what goes into the process or what that process actually is.

2 contributers who have GONE THROUH the process have tried to help you and as usual you IGNORE anyone with ACTUAL EXPERIENCE and forge ahead with your nonsense.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Magnus Eisengrim
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On Feb 14, 2016, JoeJoe wrote:
I am pointing out that scientific researchers do not get to use copyrights laws to pick and choose who gets to peer-review and verify their data.


So what? Copyright law has nothing to do with their dinner dates either. Copyright law is about the ownership of the right to copy something.

Quote:
Would you honestly inject a drug into your body that the researcher refused to let your doctor review and verify that it actually worked first??

You are honestly okay with letting a researcher inject a drug into the entire human population, the same population they refuse to share their data on that drug with??


You're changing the topic. The issue at hand is whether academic publishers--who usually, but not always own the copyright to the material they publish (in some cases, the publisher gets first right, and the authors retain future publication rights)--are protected by copyright law.

Drug testing is a completely different issue than results publishing.

Quote:
All so a publishing company that had absolutely nothing to do with the research can profit off it?? [[rolling eyes]]

-JoeJoe


A publishing company can profit off of--wait for it--publishing! Owning the copyright to an article does not give patent rights, manufacturing privileges or anything like that. When publishers publish journals or books they have the legal right to sell them and they have legal protection of the reproduction of their products.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
tommy
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It reminds me of climate gate scandal where Phil Jones was holding back and destroying data and sayings things like I am not giving it to you because all you want to do is criticize it.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Magnus Eisengrim
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On Feb 14, 2016, tommy wrote:
It reminds me of climate gate scandal where Phil Jones was holding back and destroying data and sayings things like I am not giving it to you because all you want to do is criticize it.


But it's a very different issue. Here, researchers submit their articles to publishing houses. The publishing houses charge very high fees for the right to read these articles. Ultimately, the journals are available to well-funded universities, libraries and well-funded researchers.

The issue behind all this is cost. SciHub steals the material, making it freely available.

At that's the issue. Is the stealing justified?
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
landmark
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The publishing houses charge very high fees for the right to read these articles. Ultimately, the journals are available to well-funded universities, libraries and well-funded researchers.

Or not.
tommy
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Just because somebody publishes something does not mean they have the copyright. After the peer review if the publisher asks you to sign a copyright transfer agreement, then I suggest that you say no.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Magnus Eisengrim
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On Feb 14, 2016, tommy wrote:
Just because somebody publishes something does not mean they have the copyright. After the peer review if the publisher asks you to sign a copyright transfer agreement, then I suggest that you say no.


As I said, a few journals allow the author to retain rights most do not. It's how the academic publishing world works.

In reality very few scholarly articles would make any money for the authors if they retained all rights.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
tommy
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I think you would be an idiot to sign a copyright transfer agreement to the publisher for your peer reviewed work, but I am only a street kid as opposed to a stupid scientist. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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landmark
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If academic research isn't freely available to peers for review and building upon, then the concept of academia in a free society is a joke.

Discuss?
tommy
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I think the real issue is if they can or not sell it at prices not all can afford. I would say not. because that would be a form of censorship.

"Freely" available. what does that mean?


My understanding anyway is the purpose of the process is to share legitimate information in the field, as opposed to sowing nonsense, so that it can be tested etc by all. Not sharing it or sharing it with a select few is contrary to the purpose.

Suppose it was a climate change paper supporting the man made idea but it was only shared with climate hysterics and no skeptics were allowed to see it. Then it would not be valid at all but a joke I think.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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JoeJoe
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Quote:
On Feb 14, 2016, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
A publishing company can profit off of--wait for it--publishing! Owning the copyright to an article does not give patent rights, manufacturing privileges or anything like that. When publishers publish journals or books they have the legal right to sell them and they have legal protection of the reproduction of their products.


That is right - they own the paper they printed it on - period!! They do not own the research itself, therefore have no right to prevent anyone else from also publishing that research. They charge people to download the content, not the content itself.


Quote:
On Feb 14, 2016, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
So what? Copyright law has nothing to do with their dinner dates either. Copyright law is about the ownership of the right to copy something.


Exactly - and as you already said they don't own the research, only the copy they made of it. They do not have the authority to sue someone else for something they don't own, only the original author has that right and no illegal "pay-to-play" racketeering scam to steal those rights from the author can be allowed to stand ... if I were a judge, I would hold the company in contempt of court for a frivolous lawsuit and seek the incarceration of the upper management. Smile



The really sad and disgusting part is you fail to understand the purpose of the system: the research is published so that other researchers can have access to it and verify it and build upon it in the pursuit of scientific advancement. If the researchers do not have access to it, there can be no scientific advancement.

You seem to think the purpose of the "system" is for people to make money: NO!! The purpose of the system is to distribute goods and resources, in this case: scientific research to the scientific community. If it is not doing that ... it is broken and needs to be fixed.

Your love of money is going to be the extinction of the human race because it is failing to meet the purpose of the system. Left to it's own devices ... it will collapse ... and take down whomever is standing on it.

-JoeJoe
Amazing JoeJoe on YouTube[url=https://www.youtube.com/user/AmazingJoeJoe]
JoeJoe
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On Feb 15, 2016, JoeJoe wrote:
the purpose of the system: the research is published so that other researchers can have access to it and verify it and build upon it in the pursuit of scientific advancement. If the researchers do not have access to it, there can be no scientific advancement.


And before you say something stupid ..... remember that the researchers are the ones that have to PAY to use this system!! They make no profit from this system.

-JoeJoe
Amazing JoeJoe on YouTube[url=https://www.youtube.com/user/AmazingJoeJoe]
landmark
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Quote:
"Freely" available. what does that mean?


Not "freely" available. Freely available. No ambiguous quote marks. I would think the meaning clear, but to amplify, it means access through libraries/websites/filesharing without payment to those who wish access. There are all sorts of governmental and non-governmental websites that presently expedite that process for some kinds of knowledge.

Agreed with your climate change paper example. Restricting access to the scrutiny and development of academic knowledge is harmful to a democratic society.
TonyB2009
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I feel Magnus has made some great points here. My brother is an academic and I nearly went down the same route. Instead I became a writer.

When I write a book the publishing is where the profit is. So as a writer I need to make my income there. So do artists and musicians. Academic work, however, is paid for in other ways (salary from your university, patents, research grants, etc). Publication is not where the profit is, but is just one of the end results of publication. So the researchers are not being ripped off by scientific publishers. Whether scientific publishers over-charge for their publications is a whole other debate.

In practice if you are a poor academic researching some obscure scientific nook, and you want access to research you will get it. You can always contact the original researchers. Information and knowledge does get spread.

Making everything available free online will have a few knock-on effects. If you make scientific journals less profitable they will cease publication, reducing the outlets for publication. But you won't help the original researchers at all. I think what this Russian site is doing is illegal (obviously) but also immoral and unethical.
Dannydoyle
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And before you say something stupid ....
-JoeJoe


If only you would hold yourself to such a high standard this would be much easier.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Feb 15, 2016, TonyB2009 wrote:
I feel Magnus has made some great points here. My brother is an academic and I nearly went down the same route. Instead I became a writer.

When I write a book the publishing is where the profit is. So as a writer I need to make my income there. So do artists and musicians. Academic work, however, is paid for in other ways (salary from your university, patents, research grants, etc). Publication is not where the profit is, but is just one of the end results of publication. So the researchers are not being ripped off by scientific publishers. Whether scientific publishers over-charge for their publications is a whole other debate.

In practice if you are a poor academic researching some obscure scientific nook, and you want access to research you will get it. You can always contact the original researchers. Information and knowledge does get spread.

Making everything available free online will have a few knock-on effects. If you make scientific journals less profitable they will cease publication, reducing the outlets for publication. But you won't help the original researchers at all. I think what this Russian site is doing is illegal (obviously) but also immoral and unethical.


Who pays the salary, who pays the grants and who applies for patents? Certainly that money is not free it is an investment. Shouldn't the person making that investment of their property be able to benefit from such a thing?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
landmark
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Who pays the salary, who pays the grants and who applies for patents?

Not the publishers.
landmark
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When I write a book the publishing is where the profit is. So as a writer I need to make my income there. So do artists and musicians. Academic work, however, is paid for in other ways (salary from your university, patents, research grants, etc). Publication is not where the profit is, but is just one of the end results of publication. So the researchers are not being ripped off by scientific publishers. Whether scientific publishers over-charge for their publications is a whole other debate.



Agreed, the distinction between academic research and other kinds of creative work. But whether scientific publishers overcharge (and restrict access) is, imo, exactly the debate.
Dannydoyle
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On Feb 15, 2016, landmark wrote:
Quote:
Who pays the salary, who pays the grants and who applies for patents?

Not the publishers.


No but isn't publishing a different business?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
landmark
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Not sure what you're getting at. Could you explain more?
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Researcher illegally shares millions of science papers free online to spread knowledge (12 Likes)
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