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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Researcher illegally shares millions of science papers free online to spread knowledge (12 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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JoeJoe
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Quote:
On Feb 13, 2016, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
But how this is relevant to the claim that "everyone has a right to participate..." is beyond comprehension. If people have a right to the articles, it can't be contingent on how much the creator gets paid.


Exactly - that is why she is giving them away for "free". Because everyone has a right to scientific research ... if your doctor had you on a medicine you would expect access to all available medicine data on that drug as your very life depends on the accuracy of the researcher's claims.

Again, the Polio vaccine was given away for free ... that is how we knew it actually worked, because other doctors could verify the results. Otherwise, you are taking medicine they "claim" to work without knowing if it actually does work or does not.

Elsevier's comparison to the media industry that they have the "rights" to the researcher's research is a violation of basic human rights and puts the health of every human being on the face of this Earth in jeopardy - including your very own.

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Magnus Eisengrim
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Her claim is that the quoted material
1. Applies to academic publishing,
2. Authorizes her to distribute the material that academic publishing houses have published,
3. Does not apply to other published material.

This is her justification. And JoeJoe seems to agree by saying "it is a violation of the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights." Perhaps this was intended other than how it was written, rather like the earlier statement "I am saying I agree with Alexandra Elbakyan that Elsevier's business model is an illegal money racket."
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
JoeJoe
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On Feb 13, 2016, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Her claim is that the quoted material
1. Applies to academic publishing,
2. Authorizes her to distribute the material that academic publishing houses have published,
3. Does not apply to other published material.


United Nations Declaration of Human Rights authorizes "everyone" to have access to scientific advancement, including Alexandra Elbakyan.

The ability of researchers to peer-review scientific research is more important than protecting Elsevier's bottom line; that is why it was declared a basic human right and has historically always been done that way.

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landmark
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I don't like the way it works, either.


Then what is to be done? Does a society have a legitimate interest in making research public and freely available to other researchers?
Or shall it be that only those with the adequate funds are allowed access to previous work?
How can knowledge possibly advance this way?
Jonathan Townsend
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Anyone read Russian? Sci-Hub
! Ошибка: не удалось открыть страницу
попробовать еще раз ➝
...to all the coins I've dropped here
JoeJoe
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On Feb 13, 2016, landmark wrote:
Quote:
I don't like the way it works, either.



It is odd ... people defending a "system" they admittedly don't like.

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Jonathan Townsend
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More interesting would be finding articles which were not actually published...

Even Wikipedia has a verification problem in that respect.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Magnus Eisengrim
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On Feb 13, 2016, JoeJoe wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 13, 2016, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
As I said above, the researcher VOLUNTARILY submits the paper. There is no theft.


FALSE - the researcher's research MUST be published so it can be peer-reviewed and verified.


It must be published SOMEWHERE. It doesn't have to be published with any particular publisher. There are a number of open-access journals that are unaffiliated with any for-profit publisher.


Quote:
Quote:
On Feb 13, 2016, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Except that researchers are not required to publish with Elsevier (I never have.) There are other choices.


This is another choice created by the very researchers that are having their research stolen. The author's comparison to Pirate Bay is inaccurate in that it is the researchers themselves running this site, not a third-party profiteering middleman.


Sci-Hub does not ask for author permission. It does not pay one penny to the authors of the articles. The only people that benefit are the users who get something for free. The researchers/authors have no say in the running of Sci-Hub.


Quote:
Quote:
As for the UN Declaration of Human Rights, you've got me curious. Which article(s) of the Declaration do you believe that Elsevier (or any other academic publisher) is violating?


I'm just curious too - did you actually bother to read the article?? Because if you had you wouldn't need to ask me this question. Smile



-JoeJoe
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
landmark
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Quote:
On Feb 13, 2016, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Anyone read Russian? Sci-Hub
! Ошибка: не удалось открыть страницу
попробовать еще раз ➝

Google translate says:
Error: Could not open the page
to try one more time
Jonathan Townsend
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Folks it's a battle for credibility.

Latest vs most prestigious vs most verified. Think of the metadata studies and mean time between updates of available research datasets.

Then if you let google at the raw data...

When in college, for a Jr project I accumulated available MMPI at the library and keyed the study data into a file to have SSPX run the ANOVA. Year, group, participants, scale, score. Got a pretty good finding on the PA scale against time with supporting related score correlations. That was going against the papers and data available at the school library. Spent a fair amount of research time finding that journal articles cited in an available journal were in a journal that was not unhand.

As you might imagine, I had hoped hypertext study data would have become standard by 1999. One of my advisors wanted arguments presented as citations. I wanted to do something like that for logic vs personal logic.

I'd like to see all the data as public access. I can understand the base level verification argument against dogma.

And I recall some history about the Student's tables and CRC books.
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JoeJoe
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On Feb 13, 2016, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
It must be published SOMEWHERE. It doesn't have to be published with any particular publisher. There are a number of open-access journals that are unaffiliated with any for-profit publisher.


It should be published EVERYWHERE.



Quote:
On Feb 13, 2016, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Sci-Hub does not ask for author permission. It does not pay one penny to the authors of the articles. The only people that benefit are the users who get something for free. The researchers/authors have no say in the running of Sci-Hub.


Permission for EVERYONE to access the research is implied when they have their researched published. The purpose of publishing their research is so EVERYONE can have access to it.

The researcher doesn't profit from the sale of the publication, but rather from the ability of the other researcher's to peer-review and verifying their research, thus restricting that research is in no way, shape, or form in their best interest - you are making stupid and non-nonsensical conclusions. Trying to suggest the researchers are being harmed by this website is butt-backwards thinking.

Elsevier does not pay one penny to the researchers either, that is what the researchers are complaining about (duh).

The only people that benefit from Elsevier's business model are the rich elite that can afford to participate, and research on cancer and AIDS and virus' should be available to EVERYONE not just the rich elite (duh).

The researchers have no say in Elsevier's business model so all of your points are basically completely worthless (duh).



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balducci
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"Researchers voluntarily submit papers for publication. Elsevier is one of many publishers. There are also an increasing number of "open access" journals. I don't like Elsevier, but they are not in any way stealing research."

"Except that researchers are not required to publish with Elsevier (I never have.) There are other choices."

I have published in at least one Elsevier journal. Elsevier has an effective lock on some subject areas. In one area I have significant expertise in, hands down Elsevier has the best journal. It is hugely advantageous to publish in it. Open source journals that would publish results in the area are simply not respected.

I freely admit, the above represents only a tiny portion of the subject areas Elsevier covers.

I've not read the article in the original post yet (but I will do so soon) so I've no opinion on what the person did.

Off the top of my head, though, didn't someone else do this (release journal papers online) a few years ago? (For all I know right now, perhaps that is mentioned in the article.)
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On Feb 13, 2016, JoeJoe wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 13, 2016, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
It must be published SOMEWHERE. It doesn't have to be published with any particular publisher. There are a number of open-access journals that are unaffiliated with any for-profit publisher.


It should be published EVERYWHERE.



Quote:
On Feb 13, 2016, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Sci-Hub does not ask for author permission. It does not pay one penny to the authors of the articles. The only people that benefit are the users who get something for free. The researchers/authors have no say in the running of Sci-Hub.


Permission for EVERYONE to access the research is implied when they have their researched published. The purpose of publishing their research is so EVERYONE can have access to it.

The researcher doesn't profit from the sale of the publication, but rather from the ability of the other researcher's to peer-review and verifying their research, thus restricting that research is in no way, shape, or form in their best interest - you are making stupid and non-nonsensical conclusions. Trying to suggest the researchers are being harmed by this website is butt-backwards thinking.

Elsevier does not pay one penny to the researchers either, that is what the researchers are complaining about (duh).

The only people that benefit from Elsevier's business model are the rich elite that can afford to participate, and research on cancer and AIDS and virus' should be available to EVERYONE not just the rich elite (duh).

The researchers have no say in Elsevier's business model so all of your points are basically completely worthless (duh).



-JoeJoe


The researchers have no say in SciHub's business model. So your points are completely worthless.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Magnus Eisengrim
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On Feb 13, 2016, balducci wrote:
"Researchers voluntarily submit papers for publication. Elsevier is one of many publishers. There are also an increasing number of "open access" journals. I don't like Elsevier, but they are not in any way stealing research."

"Except that researchers are not required to publish with Elsevier (I never have.) There are other choices."

I have published in at least one Elsevier journal. Elsevier has an effective lock on some subject areas. In one area I have significant expertise in, hands down Elsevier has the best journal. It is hugely advantageous to publish in it. Open source journals that would publish results in the area are simply not respected.

I freely admit, the above represents only a tiny portion of the subject areas Elsevier covers.

I've not read the article in the original post yet (but I will do so soon) so I've no opinion on what the person did.

Off the top of my head, though, didn't someone else do this (release journal papers online) a few years ago? (For all I know right now, perhaps that is mentioned in the article.)


IMO academic publishing is a mess for a number of reasons. The fact that some journals have all the influence in a field, giving the publisher a virtual monopoly is definitely one of them.

The squabbling is about whether this mess justifies large-scale theft.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
landmark
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Theft? I think it's more like an act of civil disobedience. Action against a broken system that would not otherwise be fixed.
Magnus Eisengrim
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On Feb 13, 2016, landmark wrote:
Theft? I think it's more like an act of civil disobedience. Action against a broken system that would not otherwise be fixed.


Is it not both?
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
balducci
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So I read the article, and I think the thing is overblown. People who NEED to access, and who can actually understand, the articles for the most part can do so through their workplace license. I LOL at the notion that each uploaded article costs Elsevier $750 to $150,000 (figures taken from the article).

True story, decades ago I used to subscribe to one particular Elsevier journal. It cost something like $1100 a year (again, this was decades ago). I met the editor a few years later and he mentioned that there were only about 200 subscriptions to the journal, world wide. (I was one of the very few individual, versus institutional, subscribers. The editor was unaware of this at the time.)

Another true story, I learned a few weeks ago that some of my work was included (without permission) in a popular open source software package. Where are my sweet royalties, I asked myself. Just kidding. I was happy and flattered to see my work get that sort of recognition. But only because the work had previously appeared in a formal refereed forum.

My thoughts on the subject are complicated and perhaps (at least to those unfamiliar with publishing) somewhat contradictory.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
Magnus Eisengrim
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On Feb 14, 2016, balducci wrote:


Another true story, I learned a few weeks ago that some of my work was included (without permission) in a popular open source software package. Where are my sweet royalties, I asked myself. Just kidding. I was happy and flattered to see my work get that sort of recognition. But only because the work had previously appeared in a formal refereed forum.


R?
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
tommy
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I think it would have been polite to have asked the authors for permission to publish.
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JoeJoe
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On Feb 13, 2016, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
The researchers have no say in SciHub's business model. So your points are completely worthless.


Again false ... SciHub was setup by researchers ... Scihub is being run by researchers ... the lawsuit being filed is against researchers.



Quote:
On Feb 13, 2016, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
The squabbling is about whether this mess justifies large-scale theft.


You keep trying to hold on to this illegal file-sharing Pirate Bay comparison, you are being misled.

A more accurate comparison: the record company is suing Metallica because Metallica downloaded their album after they paid the record company to publish the album.

At some point you realize that Elsevier is involved in an illegal mafia-style racketeering scam that is making it nearly impossible for scientists and researchers to create the cures we the human beings of Earth need to survive here.

We should not willing to give up our quality of life to protect Elsevier's ill-gained profits.



-JoeJoe
Amazing JoeJoe on YouTube[url=https://www.youtube.com/user/AmazingJoeJoe]
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