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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Latest and Greatest? » » Magma - HD Impression Device / Wallet (56 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Bill Cushman
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Quote:
On Jun 28, 2016, MinSting wrote:
Has been discussed several times, each one as its own point of view,
accuse me of spit in the face of paralabs is beyond belief, moreover when there are just positive words from me to them in private and in public.
again this is not the same product, it just share the same film, something exposed tons of times since the first post.


You just don't get it and that is part and parcel of the problem. In his last post Thomas is being the gentleman he always is AND expressing his regret over doing so! He clearly would prefer that you pull this product from the market as you wrote him you are willing to do if asked. At this point, (please read his last post closely), he doesn't think you sincerely meant the offer so isn't even bothering to ask ("So, I was as modest and polite as usual - my fault! I was hoping for him to do the ethically right thing on his own without being forced. Which would have happened if his realization of the issue and his offer would have been meant seriously").

So if you WERE serious when you wrote him, ""i am very sorry if I should had ask your permission due ethical principles, if you want I stop selling magma I will" put your money where your mouth is, do the ethically right thing and pull your product off the market. Is that clear? I'm sorry if this is coming off harsh, and "spitting in the face" may have been a bit much, but your path is clear here and it is only up to you to do what is right as offered knowing how Thomas (and I'm guessing Rainer as well) feel about this issue
ParaLabs - Thomas
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MinSting, you don't get it!

If you would have contacted us, saying "Hey, I developed a marker which works even better than yours - are you OK with me offering it?", Rainer and me would have agreed with pleasure ... if this statement would have been the truth (which we never had the chance to verify).
So in this case we would have cooperated with you with pleasure in one way or another and we would have stopped building inferior markers (IF this would have been true). After all, why should we produce something inferior if there is something better? Why should we keep our customers from a better tool (IF your statement would have been true)?

So you see, if the only improvement is actually the maker (IF it is an improvement, which is not proven yet), why not offer the marker only with our blessings?

The point is, you decided to rip off our complete product line: the foil, the marker, ... even the wallet!!! And all this based on a "better marker" (as you claim, not proven yet).

And when you approached me afterwards weeping some crocodile tears, you didn't actually regretted your unethical behaviour for real, all you wanted was a subsequent approval. But only the very moment your behaviour became public!

Quote:
On Jun 28, 2016, MinSting wrote:
again this is not the same product, ...


It's not? Well, there is no genuine original creation in your offer. IF there is any "improvement" at all (not proven yet in an objective comparison) you refer to the marker. Apart from this you offer apparently a cheap plastic wallet instead of genuine leather. So your "development" is to make something cheap from our creative work which uses high quality materials. Is this your improvement? And you offer the foil in pieces ... as we do for years. Is this your "improvement"?

So what is different ... apart from magnets which may or may not be better - not proven yet.

As I said, you could have discussed the marker topic with us beforehand. You did not! You didn't requested a permission or cooperation for the customers benefits. Instead you ripped off our complete product line.

And now you try to whitewash your behaviour with implausible statements. As implausible as your "regret" was genuine and honest.
Your only interest is to sell a rip off of our creative work.

I know how someone with this behaviour is called. And you should know it as well!
ParaLabs - Thomas
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Thank you for your support, Bill!
Bill Cushman
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As always, Thomas.
252life
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This is an interesting topic.
First off, Thomas..
I doubt you will ever "lose" one customer because of this release.
PL products set the bar.
That being said, most of us take all of our tools seriously, as it should be.
I personally (obviously) want the best result possible.
Again, PL products shine here.
But, there are circumstances where close/sloppy writting may be a delaying factor.
(Delay being sometimes due to clarity. RARE though in my experience.)
So, of course it's appealing, if it promises improvements.

The obvious trade off is the thickness issue.
Along with card case quality.

I carry the Paranormal wallet as my EDC.
I can't imagine not heing able to present this card case without issue though.
(We routinely do things that don't always make sense in the universe lol.)

The biggest issues here, to me, are the "repect" issue.
And the price.

I do wish that the proper conversations were had prior to release.
I also realize that this is a business for the sellers.
Ultimately, neither PL, or MinSting, are not going to give anyone anything for free.
(Again, stating the obvious)
That's business of course.
Mercenary by deffinition.

Everyone has to do what they are comfortable with.

I'm torn when it comes to the pricing.
This tech is (imo) not as over exposed as some, due exactly to this.
I believe PL stuff prices itself out of the hands of most dabblers.
Magma does kinda drain that protective moat.
I fear seeing this on youtube.
Exposed like Steam, etc.
Mentalists have a limited tool bag.
Exposure sucks so much more because of this it seems.
But, I digress..

I LOVE PL's, just to be annoyingly clear.
But, it might be nice if them and MinSting could get past this.
Maybe compare research?

I don't suspect that will happen anytime soon though.

Whatever the take away from this post is,
Please know this Thomas: your customer base is solid.

I think all sides of this are out in the light of day.
But, after a few emails with Minsting,
I have found that...he isn't Satan.
Not even close.
Seems pretty decent actually.

Last side note;
MinSting's first language doesn't appear to be English.
All kidding aside, could that have led to mis communication early on?
(I know, I know. Just trying a feable attempt at Café Mediation lol)

252AboutToGetDraggedOverTheCoals...
Look for all the world like you're counting the brain cells in his cranium.

-Theodore Annemann
252life
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I wonder if this could have been partly avoided,
by incorporating the tech differently.
Maybe a business card stack, etc.?
Look for all the world like you're counting the brain cells in his cranium.

-Theodore Annemann
ParaLabs - Thomas
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Thank you for your kind words. We appreciate it. But honestly, it's not about money as far as we are concerned. Those who are familiar with us and our activities know this.

So this statement "Ultimately, neither PL, or MinSting, are not going to give anyone anything for free." isn't correct as far as we are concerned. Actually we give about half of our work for free. Be it money-wise, with regard to material or in work, help and support.

So as far as we are concerned, it is NOT about money. I hope this became obvious. At least, those who know us for a while can verify this.

As far as your remarks are concerned that you want the best quality - we do the same! And as I said: IF any developer comes up with a genuine improvement of any of our works, we would happily give him a GO for our customers benefits! I mean, actually we would stultify ourselves by keeping our customers away from something better!

So there would have been many ways to deal with this beforehand. But MinSting decided to go a different route. And THIS route is chosen for money-reasons - to make some cash from our creative work. And THIS is what annoys me.

Nevertheless I appreciate your mediation efforts, mate. Thank you!
Artie Fufkin
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Call a spade a spade ... this is just the latest in a long line of magic rip-offs.

Nothing more complicated than that going on here, and the general attitude and responses in this thread confirm that the only concern now is to manipulate the situation such that he isn't held responsible for his actions.

Disgusting really, but not at all uncommon in magic.
Support Thomas and ParaLabs, and ignore those who would steal without shame.
Lseeyou
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This is not a Rip Off! Did anyone bought it? I did.

This guy made a search of all magnet sheets available, tested them custom made small magnets unavailable elsewhere... and you guys still say it's a rip off?

RIP OFF is this and you don't say a thing > http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S21252

Disgusting is what you are doing.
252life
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Hey Thomas,

I realized after my post, that the money comment might read wrong.
For the record, I want to be perfectly clear,
I did not intend for that to be a dig.
I was just trying to say that, these are products that aren't free.

Also, I still get giddy everytime I pop the Paranormal in my pocket.
I use it daily.
As a regular wallet, and for performing.
Nothing in sight is even a remote threat.

The established quality of PL products is not part of this this discussion imo.
This isn't remotely a compitition.

I have never read, heard, or seen, anything but class from the PL guys.
Never, not once.
Serious question, how many complaints have you heard about PL?
Probably none.
That says tons in this community.
PL has earned a fantastic reputation over years.
Much deserved.


Thomas, you have the reputation, customer base, etc., and dammit people love ya lol
Look for all the world like you're counting the brain cells in his cranium.

-Theodore Annemann
252life
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Not to beat a dead horse, but...

I feel obligated to correct a statement of mine, yet again.
About the money side of things, and PL.
They do (I've read) a ton of charity work.
They really do seem to be folks that try to make the world a better place.


252Clarity
Look for all the world like you're counting the brain cells in his cranium.

-Theodore Annemann
videoman
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Quote:
On Jun 28, 2016, Lseeyou wrote:
This is not a Rip Off! Did anyone bought it? I did.

This guy made a search of all magnet sheets available, tested them custom made small magnets unavailable elsewhere... and you guys still say it's a rip off?

RIP OFF is this and you don't say a thing > http://www.penguinmagic.com/p/S21252

Disgusting is what you are doing.


I don't see how any of your comments are successful in defending it is not a rip off of an existing product.
You can do all the things you mentioned and still create a rip off, in fact all of these things are commonly done. Knock off products don't just happen, it still takes some thought, research, etc. In fact, that is very likely how minsting got involved in all this. He probably intended to consult Thomas or Rainier originally but before he knew it he had too much time and money invested to risk them not giving him their blessing to release his new product. Obviously I have no idea for sure what happened but that is a common scenario when "good people" start releasing knock offs. It is not their intention but it is easy to pass a point of no return without realizing it. Then they are forced to rationalize the situation in order to justify their actions in their own minds so that they can live with doing what they know in their hearts is not the right thing to do.

But all that being said, the main point being made here is that PL was never consulted beforehand as a simple courtesy if nothing else.
252life
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I agree.
Look for all the world like you're counting the brain cells in his cranium.

-Theodore Annemann
Artie Fufkin
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Knock-Off, Rip-Off, Copy ... whatever you want to call it doesn't change what it actually is.

There's really no point in these straw-man arguments and attempts at equivocation ... it's simply an effect that has been all but stolen from the original creator and marketed as a "new" product by the person who chose to steal it.

It's really not that hard to understand clearly what's going on, and it's equally not difficult at all for each person individually to decide if their personal ethics would allow them to purchase the rip-off, or would compel them to purchase the original.

Those who choose to purchase the rip-off are the very cause of the ethics issues in magic, whereas those that choose to support the original creator lend themselves to supporting other creators to keep on originating in magic, and to let those who have already released an effect of their own creation enjoy the benefits of their artistic and business acumen.

Attempts to spin this into some complex scenario whereby there are different "levels of guilt" are pointless, as theft of an idea is quite simply ... the theft of an idea.
MinSting
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Thomas If I was wrong using same film without strict previous contact I apologized several times, but I can't change the past as you can understand.
I would like to have your approval, but you don't, in fact I feel you see in magma a rivalry after the last positive review, something I never intended to be, and now rather than let me offer it, you changed your mind, you say you would not care if I had contacted you previously, but I can't change the past, neither you want change the present.
Paralabs product is not worst than mine, is just different, and its sad you feel I am an enemy.
as I never presented this product trying to undervalue other products, in fact everybody who send me a private message here, can atestify I always claimed that paralabs has better thickness penetration, never trying undervaluing your product, always positive and underlining the differences.
Also there is zero inspiration with the paranormal wallet, in fact its way more similar to "the informant" due the way I also use a sticky note, but you guys
see the yellow film and start to make it extesive to anything.
This was never intended to be a release product, just a personal research to get a good impression without using an electronic devices.
said that, I don't find ethical to paste private message in public, neither sell a ripp of product, something this is not, even if it share a portion.
Joe Atmore
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Quote:
On Jun 28, 2016, MinSting wrote:
but I can't change the past


But you can change the future which you are apparently unwilling to do so.
Best Thoughts,

Joe Atmore
International Artists Consultant Uri Geller's Phenomenon TV Series;
PEA Bob Haines Memorial Award;
Dunninger Show Recreation;
Author of Dunninger Knows and Dunninger's Brain Busters

JosephAtmore.com
MinSting
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Joe Atmore its sad for me as there is quite lot of work invested on magma, but looks Thomas want me to stop selling it, you just had to say it by private message.
Wish granted.
Those who purchased magma will still have support for the product.
252life
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MinSting, that is a stand up thing to do.
This has been messy, and convoluted.
I really hope all parties can move past it.

I also hope this thread is noticed by creators in the future.

Honestly though, I feel for both.
I've emailed Min a few times.
I don't get the feeling he's a quick buck guy.

Anyway, hopefully there's room for, maybe down the road, collaboration of some sort..?
Kinda doubt it, but ya never know.

I trust this community to air differences, then to get past it.
Who knows?

Kinda like being a kid watching the parents argue lol.
Look for all the world like you're counting the brain cells in his cranium.

-Theodore Annemann
ParaLabs - Thomas
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Quote:
On Jun 28, 2016, MinSting wrote:
looks Thomas want me to stop selling it, you just had to say it by private message.

You know, I would have loved you to make an ethical decision on your own right in the beginning.
But when you contacted me, you just wanted my approval ... or that I make a decision for you!
But that's not how life goes. You have to make up your own decisions based on what YOU think is right or wrong and not based on what I think. So, I refused to make a decision for you, right. You're an adult after all.

Honestly, I hate it to speak that bluntly in public threads as I did here. I would have loved if you would have decided to take the chance to deal with this ethically right in the beginning an take a way out head held high.

But you didn't take this route on your own until now, you couldn't ... for whatever reason.
Pity that the situation evolved in a way that we had to air dirty laundry in public.

Really a pity.


@Lseeyou: You are obviously no creator who ever released something to the public. Something that you developed over many years.
You see the efforts of MinSting ... but you ignore our efforts over the latest 10 (TEN) years on this technology and idea.
It seems to me that you have double standards here. And be assured that we have an open eye for other rip offs too.
That we don't discuss this all the time in public is another topic. And which creators have requested permissions is something that you don't know either, right?
So, your remarks expose rather yourself as being biased on the one hand and having a lack of background information on the other.
IAIN
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And even if we do a comparison, (and you did send me a photo and its no clearer in comparison to the one using my marker and the paralab kit)...

pvc wallet vs bespoke leather case
going through 2 sheets vs going through 4+
custom tip vs custom tip (both have this and PL's come in different sizes/dimensions)

i don't know how much "stuff" you get with Minsting's so can't comment...

but all of these things have already been done, discovered and released...

having the tech in different items has been done for years, its not new...

as thomas said, it would have been simple to contact them, say "have a look at this, is this different to yours? how about my handling of the wallet - what do you think?"...

to claim to not being aware of the PL team just shows a lack of awareness and lack of diligence in research...

...and not to side-track this, but it has recently happened to me too, despite them contacting me and me saying (like Thomas) "well, if you honestly think its different enough - I can't stop you releasing it, but I don't think it is"...and they almost immediately after release theirs, AND at a higher price! crazy...

if an effect used a green and red coloured pencil, doesn't mean you can release the same thing using a blue and orange one and call it new...
I've asked to be banned
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