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Jonathan Townsend
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@lunatik, what about the direction of flow, the distinctive divisions and preexisting conditions of strife which define the worldview?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
lunatik
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I think there's always pre-existing strife. I think one has to take a step back and look at the facts, agendas on both sides, your moral/religious beliefs and then start to move in the direction that it leads you.
"Don't let your Dreams become Fantasies"
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On Feb 26, 2016, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
So far not much reference to Plato's Allegory of the Sun.


Only the philosopher and ver breaks the chains and observes the sun. There aint too many philosophers around these days. There never were--which was the point of the allegory.

We're all still in the cave, Jon. Scroogled, even. Smile
tommy
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Eugenics (/juːˈdʒɛnɪks/; from Greek εὐγενής eugenes "well-born" from εὖ eu, "good, well" and γένος genos, "race, stock, kin") is a set of beliefs and practices that aims at improving the genetic quality of the human population.
Nazi eugenics were Nazi Germany's racially based social policies that placed the biological improvement of the Aryan race or Germanic "Übermenschen" master race through eugenics at the center of Nazi ideology. Wiki

Although philosophers have contemplated the meaning and value of eugenics at least since Plato recommended a state-run program of mating intended to strengthen the guardian class in his Republic, the modern version of eugenics had its start with the 19th century cousin of Charles Darwin, British scientist Francis Galton (1883). Galton was interested in “improving human stock” through scientific management of mating; his explicit goal was to create better humans.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/eugenics/

All things can be used for good or evil.

There seems to be two sorts of world view: the authorized and the unauthorized.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
tommy
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7) Money

In these very austere times folk’s views will change according to what they see in reality. Change folks environment and you change their view. What’s the use of philosophizing when It is only the action that really matters? “Whatever be your goal. Keep your eye upon the doughnut,. And not upon the hole." The gap between the rich and the poor keeps widening and essentially that is what changes folks view.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
landmark
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Tommy's 7) was the basis of some neo-Marxists' writing, that a person's economic relation to the means of production is the determining factor in a person's actions, thoughts, and ideology.

I disagree with that. I think it is one thing, but not the determining thing. IMO, the first five factors I mentioned above often work to directly contradict a person's economic interest.

Jon and Stone refer to Plato's allegory; that is what I meant when I said the first step is seeing that you live within a story. Until you see the borders of your container, you don't know that there is anything else.

Finally, I'd like to throw out this: it is quite possible to have profound change in thinking and actions without changing one's world view. For example, my views on war, the use of violence, and trust of the government and police force have changed a lot since my early high school days, but that is more a case of fitting in new information into my already formed world view, not a new world view.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On Feb 27, 2016, landmark wrote:


Finally, I'd like to throw out this: it is quite possible to have profound change in thinking and actions without changing one's world view. For example, my views on war, the use of violence, and trust of the government and police force have changed a lot since my early high school days, but that is more a case of fitting in new information into my already formed world view, not a new world view.


My point above is that world views often change in an evolutionary, rather than a revolutionary fashion.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
landmark
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Yes, I agree with that. Sometimes it takes a lot of feedback over a lot of time to change the internal stories we tell ourselves.

I guess that's true of psychotherapy in a way:
"I'm not an addict, not an addict, not an addict...well sometimes I'm selfish, sometimes I'm selfish, sometimes I'm selfish...I'm a fraud, a fraud, a fraud...I'm an addict, an addict, an addict..." with several steps left out for the sake of time. Smile
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Feb 27, 2016, landmark wrote:
Tommy's 7) was the basis of some neo-Marxists' writing, that a person's economic relation to the means of production is the determining factor in a person's actions, thoughts, and ideology.

I disagree with that. I think it is one thing, but not the determining thing. IMO, the first five factors I mentioned above often work to directly contradict a person's economic interest.

Jon and Stone refer to Plato's allegory; that is what I meant when I said the first step is seeing that you live within a story. Until you see the borders of your container, you don't know that there is anything else.

Finally, I'd like to throw out this: it is quite possible to have profound change in thinking and actions without changing one's world view. For example, my views on war, the use of violence, and trust of the government and police force have changed a lot since my early high school days, but that is more a case of fitting in new information into my already formed world view, not a new world view.



Very interesting final paragraph.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Jonathan Townsend
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I like cookies - revolutionary
Do this if you want cookies - bevaviorism - evolutionary
I'll get my own cookies thankyou - revolutionary
I have to make my own cookies if I want them - revolutionary
I need stuff to make my own cookies - ?
I have to trade to get the stuff to make my cookies -?
It costs X to make cookies and Y to buy cookies so... ?

revolutionary or evolutionary?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
landmark
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A good summary of Chinese governmental policy since 1948, I would say.

But people, unlike governments, have psyches. We don't know what we don't know (Dick Cheney not withstanding).
tommy
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The entity which occupies and directs the physical body of government is that of the banker.

The Politician's are the shepherds crooks, used to nudge yew in the right direction. Oooh! Ya wicked Ay! Wicked Ay! Oooh hooh! Say No MORE!
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Salguod Nairb
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Quote:
On Feb 25, 2016, landmark wrote:


1) What forms a world view? Why, for example, does one person identify, say, as a conservative, and another as a socialist?

2) What changes one's world view? Can you point to a major shift in your world view that occurred and identify why it happened?



The answer to both is Scope.
We shall meet in the place where there is no darkness...
landmark
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Okay, I'll bite. What's Scope, and how did it affect you?
Salguod Nairb
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Well, that explains your bad breath... just kidding.

Your scope (for most people) increases as you get older, or after certain life events.

Ideology can continue to influence your decisions but it is scope that keeps it in check.

Scope is the (hopefully) ever changing personal world around you.

It is like learning that though you are right the outcome will be wrong. If that makes sense.

We try to shape our environment; and would even go as far to say our reality, to meet our needs.

Needs also translates to understanding and that is why we shut out contradicting comments.

If it was only me, and I was living in a box somewhere, then I would never have to change. But, since I have goals, a large family to support, and a relentless need to express myself with animations I had to make personal compromises for the greater good.
We shall meet in the place where there is no darkness...
tommy
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Your scope decreases as you get older as you get more and more brainwashed as you go, then it increases just after you have dug your own grave and jumped into it.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
acesover
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Guess this is as lively as it gets here anymore. Must have been a big shake up while I was on my 90 day ban. Guess it is a good thing, maybe, sort of, whatever. Smile
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On Feb 27, 2016, landmark wrote:

Jon and Stone refer to Plato's allegory; that is what I meant when I said the first step is seeing that you live within a story. Until you see the borders of your container, you don't know that there is anything else.


Again, according to Socrates, you never see that you're in a story. But it's an allegory, folks. It doesn't apply here at all.

In philosophy we usually use the phrase "world view" as a direct translation of "Weltanschauung" (pronounced "velt onsh ow oong" in German, but we Americans usually just say "velt on shong"), which means something like, One can't see past one's time and culture, which means something like, A 20th century white, middle-class American doesn't see the world like, say, an 18th century Manchurian peasant. Again, it doesn't apply here at all.

What applies here is much, much simpler: can one change one's mind? One's perspective? One's point of view?

Yes, absolutely. What Landmark is getting at is the how and why. Might I humbly suggest that it depends entirely upon the individual, and that the reason most people don't change their views is: fear. Most people are sore afraid of the consequences that the world isn't the way they think it is. Most people are like Nigel Tufnel: it doesn't occur to them that one doesn't have to have an eleven on their amplifier.



Everyone tends to laugh at Nigel, but everybody *IS* Nigel.

The reason we (and I include myself, of course) never see why ten could be louder is because our amplifiers go to eleven and we are afraid of losing our elevens. Our candidate, our party, our religion (or our atheism or our belief in science), all go to eleven. For this to change requires courage, and most of us don't have that. We're frightened of only having access to ten. Eleven gives us comfort.
Salguod Nairb
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Quote:
On Feb 29, 2016, tommy wrote:
Your scope decreases as you get older as you get more and more brainwashed as you go, then it increases just after you have dug your own grave and jumped into it.



Hey Tommy, long time.

Yes some peoples scope do diminish as they get older. Especially when they fail to plan for their future and let their shortcomings change their conviction.

Whichever politician isn't a threat to their Social Security becomes the right candidate.
We shall meet in the place where there is no darkness...
kambiz
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Quote:
On Feb 26, 2016, landmark wrote:
A somewhat serious thread, if you have the patience.

It seems to be true that we rarely change our minds about our world view; when confronted with political, social, or economic facts that contradict our world view, we rationalize and distort, bludgeoning the new information into our old world view.

Indeed, there's some experimental evidence to suggest that when confronted with facts that contradict our world view, it only strengthens that view.

So two questions I put on offer:

1) What forms a world view? Why, for example, does one person identify, say, as a conservative, and another as a socialist?

2) What changes one's world view? Can you point to a major shift in your world view that occurred and identify why it happened?

It's true we all are born into certain circumstances and parents, but our views sometimes transcend those factors. I'm wondering why, and what the mechanism is. Or is it that less change happens than I am hypothesizing?


I think world views are often conceptually formed in our early teen years and they develop and evolve deeper facets from there on in.
Our ingrained sense of justice is well formed by the age of 13 or 14 and as we see injustices in the world we question why? The responses we receive to these questions form our "social education" and resultingly create the conceptual framework for our world view.

This is what happened to me, and I can see happening to my children.

In regards to what changes a world view, I think it boils down to education either via life experience or through a rational presentation of facts. It is very difficult for one's world view to change as an adult, but I have seen people transform as adults only when a moment of inspiration has captured the heart, as if a weight had been removed from what was already inherently there....

Kam
If I speak forth, many a mind will shatter,
And if I write, many a pen will break.
.....and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!
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