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Ed_Millis Inner circle Yuma, AZ 2292 Posts |
Tim:
I did not intend my words to be demeaning, condescending, or dismissive. I also do not cyberbully. I do not deny that you are more aware of "what's out there" than I am. And I would not try to claim that you have been anything other than respectful and, in your eyes, helpful in sharing your understanding. My concern was that your "opposing viewpoint", however respectfully presented, was not moving this topic forward on its original track. In your eyes, it was indeed helpful information. And to anyone who wanted that expanded understanding, I'm sure it was indeed very helpful. But we are here on *this* thread to discuss the potentials of scaling a magic - or entertainment or performing - business. We are discussing what possibilities might be in *this* niche. That was why I suggested you might want to start a different thread - it seemed like your information always fell outside the circle of this niche, and was not adding to or "helping" the current discussion. I see your point that if more success is desired AND this niche feels too small, it might be time to explore other niches. And at that point, your links and info just might be the rainbow path to the pot of gold. But in the current thread, it seems like only you want to "go there" - the rest of us are happy exploring what's right here. And that's why it felt like you might be missing our direction of discussion, and why a new thread might be better. Sincerely, Ed |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
I still fail to see how adding to your work load makes you any less self employed.
I’ve owned several businesses that didn’t require me being there all the time, but that didn’t mean I weren’t responsible for it or I didn’t have to be involved with it. Changing your job description doesn’t always set you free. Truth is any business can be expanded. Fact is just today I saw a huge lemonade stand on wheels being pulled down the road by a truck. But those who can take what most perceive as a hobby and make a good living from it, just don’t know how lucky they are. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I think you can expand yourself right out of business. I think the best way to expand is mostly to keep escalating prices and working more or less as desired.
Expansion is really not all it is cracked up to be. You can expand so much you have no time for anything. I mean why are we working if not to be able to enjoy the fruits of our labor? Why expand so much you sacrifice time watching the kids grow up, or grandkids? Time is the only thing we never get back. Each of us is limited. Why spend it all in the quest for more?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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thomasR Inner circle 1189 Posts |
Exactly Danny.
I don't really understand MindPro's Criss Angel example. I'm not sure when Criss Angel was a "local performer" but he did evolve and make a name for himself, but in the end, he's doing the same thing he's always been doing. Performing magic. He's a performer. And in order for his business to expand he has had to personally do more. Without him, his brand doesn't exist. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
Well I didn't want to really go deeper with this as it seems some are having trouble with the the basic surface question here. But there is a difference between growth, expansion and scaling.
Any business can do these if they choose, but as Danny points out you have to determine the if's and why's and what is really best for you, your business model and your overall business. Just as too many people work in their business rather than on their business, all off these need to be carefully understood and considered before deciding. Any of the guys here that are saying they just want to be the independent, individual performer (what I referred to as a self-employed job) will indeed have to work more to gain more. Because their business is just them. That why in Tim's mind he finds it hard to see scalable options in entertainment. But its not in entertainment but in the business model he chooses to conduct his entertainment. That for the most part goes along with that business model. But in regard to what Tom said all them, growth, expansion or scaling will require additional efforts or work. It's silly to think otherwise. And yes, usually scaling comes with responsibility to more than just yourself, typically including others as well. Where growth and expansion can mean doing more of what you do in a larger area or greater capacity, costs and expense tend to grow proportionally as well. You are adding more at the same or similar rate of increased revenue (and likely expenses.) Typically scaling can occur by taking something and offering a greater version of it, adding income more exponentially while only a offering more of your offerings at a minimal rate. It can also mean remaining the same or similar but going wider with the same. Duplicating your current successful business on a larger scale. This is where just existing as a magician can as I said be limiting. Also as I said earlier, many may not want this, which as I said is fine. These are usually part-time guys or the "I'm just really interested in performing" type of guys. They are happy just performing "on the side" or for fun, not necessarily as a profit-based operable business. But then there are those that are trying to operate as a business, career, profession or income that still remain only as a self-employed performer, but who desire to do more with their business but may not know, what to do to or where to begin. Tom's lemonade stand example was growth. If they franchised it could be scaling. If a performer wants to scale their first step is to operate off of a scalable business model. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
And for the record Criss Angel hasn't always been performing magic. He was pursuing a rock and roll career (band) and when it didn't do as well as expected went seriously into magic just a few years before his boom.
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thomasR Inner circle 1189 Posts |
I don't think you are correct... There are pictures of Criss Angel performing magic in my Paul Osborne books from the 80's.
According to Wiki, which sources the "Criss Angel Biography" - "By the time he graduated from East Meadow High School, he had decided to pursue a career as a professional magician instead of attending college as his parents wanted.[1] According to Biography Channel, "Angel hit the road and began touring with other traveling performance acts. Between traveling and performing, he attempted to further his education in his own by studying the history of magic in public libraries. He also studied the art of mysticism, music, martial arts and even dance." He did try music as well.... Didn't he do magic while in the band "angel" ? I always thought he was trying to be a rock n roll magic show in those days. Not that it directly relates to the topic.. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
Quote:
On Apr 27, 2016, thomasR wrote: You are correct that he did do magic when he was younger, but I thought had gotten away from it for music. I opened for the band Angel in I think '78 and he (Criss) had nothing to do with that band (I remember they all had waist-length black hair and wore all white costumes - like the negative image of Kiss but w/o makeup, same label too if I remember correctly). It was his dad that after his band days or towards the end of them encouraged him to go for magic big time. Once this was determined it happened relatively fast for him. He also had the financial support of his family/investors to propel it all f I remember correctly. I have never read his biography though so you may have some more facts than I recall. Not that it directly related to the topic, lol. |
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thomasR Inner circle 1189 Posts |
Interesting. I haven't read his bio... that was just a quote that came up on Wiki from his bio.
Do you know if he self promoted / 4-walled his off-broadway run? |
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Ray Pierce Inner circle Los Angeles, CA 2607 Posts |
If I remember it was self produced borrowing the money against his mother's house. It was done in the basement of the World Wrestling Federation building so "Off Broadway" is a little stretch. The put 150 seats in there. He didn't really speak in the short 65 minute show which could have been plus. These quotes are from the Variety Revue of the show:
"For this and other reasons pertaining to the high hokum factor, the show is perhaps ideally suited to teens and preteens with a fondness for yucky stuff, or frantically enthusiastic fans of gothic fiction" "The only feat to fall completely flat is Angel’s Houdini bit, in which he escapes from a straitjacket while hanging upside down. It’s not really very spectacular, and it takes a while. It would probably only appeal to those who are perennially turned on by the sight of a hunky fellow in leather and boots trussed up and hoisted by a hook from the ceiling. But fans of that kind of entertainment are not likely to be making their way through the Magic Kingdom of Times Square to this somewhat cramped and uncomfortable basement venue in any great numbers. Then again, you never know." His credit for Headlining at Madison Square Garden was actually a 10 minute show added to an existing Halloween attraction there. There is nothing wrong with this work but he just had no experience doing a full show by himself which accounts for so much of the learning curve on his current show in Vegas.
Ray Pierce
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
Yes, from what I remember his father in his final dying days told him to go for his magic and after he passed his mother to honor her husband's request remortgaged or borrowed against their house to fund it. It was in fact in the WWF theater. I believe eventually they co-financed some of it's run or the next incarnation. It lasted several years from what I remember. The way it reads in his bio and promotional stuff seems a bit different for some of the reviews at the time. But it got him in the press and media, it got him the initial interest for what led to his Mindfreak show.
"There is nothing wrong with this work but he just had no experience doing a full show by himself which accounts for so much of the learning curve on his current show in Vegas." This line very well explains both CA as well as more recent;y Mat Franco who is struggling in town. |
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1KJ Inner circle Warning: We will run out of new tricks in 4385 Posts |
This is a great topic, Mindpro!
It is also a very valuable one. I earn money doing magic and I own an investment firm. This is something I think about a lot... especially for my kids. I am very focused on moving in the direction of creating assets that generate income for me and my future generations. Who says that only the elite 1% can own assets to take care of themselves and their kids? We can do this too. Thank you for the subject, I am so glad you are getting magicians to think about this. KJ |
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