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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts 
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Whew! As always, Jack, you show a depth of knowledge and thought that more-or-less beginners like me can only marvel at. Have you thought of writing a book?
For what it's worth, I'd like to respond to your three points. Before I got serious about magic, I used to go occasionally to our small city's magic shop (now long gone, sadly). When they showed me tricks I'd just happily go along with whatever they did. Sometimes I'd decide to buy a trick, and when the magician explained how it worked, I'd occasionally realize that he had done a move that had seemed odd to me, but that thought had been way, way at the back of my mind. I just accepted that magicians had a variety of ways to ask me to choose the cards. And I certainly wouldn't have been a fast enough thinker to catch your point about marked cards. I'm aware of some of the methods for making it appear that the bottom card keeps changing, but worry that a smart and very observant spectator will realize that what they're seeing isn't really possible. On the other hand, I definitely see your point about the method of making the card appear to have come from the RH packet happens at a moment when the audience is closely watching the cards. The upshot of all this -- and I wonder what you think -- is that at my level it would be best to just learn the "usual" force, where one shows the LH packet, and work on developing a devil-may-care attitude. The latter doesn't come naturally to me, but I can fake it, so maybe the best thing is to work on faking it more consistently! That would get me performing Chicago Opener sooner and thus give me some badly needed performance experience. Any thoughts? Bob |
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Kaliix Inner circle Connecticut 1990 Posts
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OMG, No, nope, uh ah, not a chance. The ONLY time you should show or even mention the "rules of the game" is IF, IF you are performing under "test conditions". IF and again a big IF I'm some how doing a routine under test conditions, I wouldn't choose the HSF. Then again, I wouldn't choose the majority forces I would normally use and would use any number of excellent gaffed deck forces available.
How is it that you keep overlooking the fact that any force is used in the CONTEXT of a routine, where actions, patter, reveals, and the natural ebb and flow of a routine all effect the moment that a force is used. The HSF isn't the be all end all of forces but in the context of Red Hot Mama, the HSF placement and use in the routine works well. I also notice you never addressed how you know all these things that an audience thinks. I think your premise is again flawed. Quote: On Apr 9, 2020, countrymaven wrote:
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel J. Boorstin |
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magicfish Inner circle 7016 Posts
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I agree Kaliix.
Explaining the rules of the game is fatal here. So is doing a ROV vanish with a flat hand and open fingers. don't run when you're not being Chased. Sleight of Hand 101. I'd hate to think what "the pro" thinks of Carney's Cylinder and Coins. |
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Kaliix Inner circle Connecticut 1990 Posts
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A post in Latest and Greatest on Cartoon Capers by Gary Jones made me go back and watch the explanation video. Gary uses the HSF as his main force in this effect (his choice of the HSF is in part due to the nature of the trick). In this application, when the force is more "front and center", Gary just uses the simple subtlety of first showing the card choice procedure by using the HSF motion and pulling cards off the bottom, showing how the spectator could have picked this card or that card (the cards being different). Right afterward, he used the HSF to pull cards off the top and forces the bottom card.
In that context, a little subtlety is used as the force carries more weight in this routine. But the routining matters, the spectators card is instantly shown and repeatedly signed in multiple places before the hole jumps to the spectators signed card. No thought is given to the selection procedure because of what follows and how fair and open it seems. Then the magic hits and the spectator has no clue. The HSF here is still incongruent, but a simple subtlety is all that is needed for the incongruency to be nothing.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel J. Boorstin |
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Rupert Pupkin Inner circle 1452 Posts
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Sounds like a weird shade of lipstick, even for a pig.
Convenience over the quality: That's the magician's way. |
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts
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Just curious: how do you *know* when a given force is congruent with the flow of a trick? Is it experience, or are there some guidelines you can offer?
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magicfish Inner circle 7016 Posts
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Quote:
On Apr 10, 2020, Kaliix wrote: John Cornelius I believe. |
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Mr Salk Special user Tied to 568 Posts
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Quote:
On Apr 10, 2020, Bob G wrote: You never know. It's a matter of taste. But taste develops from experience.
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jim ferguson Veteran user Ayrshire, Scotland 386 Posts
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Quote:
On Apr 9, 2020, countrymaven wrote: So now you're slagging off Harbottle ? I agree, I am commenting on something I've never seen. As with EVERYTHING you say, we only have your word for it, so that is all I can go on. YOU SAID you move your guilty hand away, after your fantastic ROV, with your hand flat and fingers wide open. I'm saying that is wrong, and not natural at all - talk about telegraphing. Again, your above comments to me imply I don't know coin magic. Your "I won't tell you what palm this automatically transfers to", is almost laughable. Do you really think I just became a student of the craft a week ago ? Assuming you actually read your posts before hitting submit, I'm sure you see the irony in your statement about magicians ignorantly commenting on something they've never seen. You mentioned earlier about your wonderful handling of the pen through note/bill. I offered to have a discussion in secret sessions about both our approaches/thoughts. This was an opportunity for you to actually show us that you know what you are doing and talking about. You ignored this part of my post. You came on here a few years ago, asking rank beginners questions, then all of a sudden said you were a pro. Not only that, you are the most successful pro in your area, with more work than anyone else. Now you are an inventor/improver of every sleight you come across, and make a point of telling us all how miraculous your tricks are, and how they are better than everyone elses - while sanctimoniously telling us that if what we do works for us then great. Yet the actual content of your posts comes across as someone who doesn't know much at all about what they are talking about. I'd absolutely love you to prove me wrong, and would be the first to publicly apologise if you did. But as of now, you lack any real credibility. Until you write something intelligent, without putting everyone else down in the process, or post a video of one of these "miracle class" tricks you keep harping on about, I will continue to believe you are simply a fantasist. Jim |
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magicfish Inner circle 7016 Posts
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Bravo, Jim. It's about time someone else noticed this. Or I'm sure they did but chose not to call him out. Anyway, good for you.
The HSF is an effective weapon if used properly, the right way, at the right time and place. |
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countrymaven Inner circle 1428 Posts
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Jim, about the ROv. I never said I move my hand away with fingers open wide. You said it in ignorance. therefore everything you say seems to be at least
based on your thoughts, ignorant of what others said, and without even seeing something . YOu know more about it than them? I don't know what you smoke but you might want to cut back a few ounces of it. |
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magicfish Inner circle 7016 Posts
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...and there it is.
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jim ferguson Veteran user Ayrshire, Scotland 386 Posts
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My apologies, Maven. You said your HAND comes away wide open, not your fingers - one is as bad as the other, and neither look natural.
Every other point I made still stands, and is not "based on my thoughts, ignorant of what others said". They are based on reading your BS on this site. Every post you have made is on these boards for everyone to see. You have had several opportunities now to prove me wrong, yet all you have done is say I mentioned your fingers when you said hand, and told me to cut back on whatever I'm smoking. You think nothing of telling us in almost every post, how great your methods and techniques are, and how miraculous your tricks are perceived - yet you have absolutely nothing to back up your ridiculous claims. We are expected to believe it simply because you said so. As I mentioned in a previous post in this thread - all hat and no cattle. You are fooling no-one. Jim |
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Kaliix Inner circle Connecticut 1990 Posts
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I'm with you on this one. Countrymaven offered up in another thread that his version of the Sanada gimmick was far superior to Jay Scott Berry's. We talked about it and he even offered to send me one free of charge so I could compare. He never sent it. I pm'ed him, nothing. I pm'ed again saying I would love to purchase it from him (he said he sells it). Nothing.
My spidey senses are tingling and my BS meter is flashing... Quote: On Apr 10, 2020, jim ferguson wrote:
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel J. Boorstin |
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magicfish Inner circle 7016 Posts
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We're all still waiting for his original Invisible Reverse that he invented and would reveal to all in "just a minute".
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countrymaven Inner circle 1428 Posts
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Yes. Those who bought my Sanada praised it as the best. Not as just another option. Also my sponge Sanada offers miracles like nothing else. Show a sponge in the hand. INstantly one handed, show it empty. But you seem to have forgotten that. I explained to you Kallix, that manufacturing it was harder than expected. I can't put in that kind of time to give one away to a skeptic. It has been proven and you saw the review. I had a "love it or return it" on my dime policy . I will be manufacturing it in quantity soon.
It is not worth giving stuff away for free to people who know that what I have done cannot be done. Since they haven't seen it. But you are presuming to be a psychic too if you know more about something than someone who does it. Particularly if it is something you have never seen. But the point of this thread again, should be THE HINDU SHUFFLE. With CLARITY IN INSTRUCTING A SPECTATOR on the procedure, and with a slight twist, ( my version would be have two cards face up on the bottom with the force card on top, distract and flip the packet while discussing the fairness of it and showing the right hand packet where they stopped). I am not saying this is the only way. But the Hindu shuffle could go from being a confusing, half decent force, to a very good one. Any other ideas on how to do this? But having the spectator clearly understand it, and not fooling them due to confusion. If the Hindu force is good enough for you as is, and you can't improve it, perhaps you really need to make a new magic order or else just spend your time here dissing new creators. |
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jim ferguson Veteran user Ayrshire, Scotland 386 Posts
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It's not confusing, Maven. Discrepant yes, but not confusing.
While your handling is intetesting, I feel your "distract and flip" happens at the worst possible time. If there has been "clarity in instructing a spectator in the procedure" as you say, then all eyes are going to be on that top card, waiting to see it's identity. To distract the spectator at this point is misdirection of the type where the spectator will KNOW they have been misdirected/distracted. That is why that type of force is usually done under a handkerchief. Jim |
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magicfish Inner circle 7016 Posts
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Quote:
On Apr 11, 2020, countrymaven wrote: Aaand there we have it. |
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Francois Lagrange Veteran user Paris, France 383 Posts
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I don't know if this has been mentioned, but a good ploy is to have the forced card 2nd from bottom. Casually show the bottom card, observant audience will notice it. Pull down on the bottom card and go into the Hindu Shuffle leaving the bottom card in left hand. The original 2nd card from bottom is therefore forced.
This handling has a lot going for it: You don't over prove, it's casual, it's easy and keeps the fluency of the original.
Protect me from my friends, I'll deal with my enemies.
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Bob G Inner circle 2831 Posts
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I like your idea in principle, Francois. Does it involve palming the bottom card? If not, how do you hide it?
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Posted: Apr 10, 2020 10:20 am 
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