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bevbevvybev Inner circle UK 2672 Posts |
Something else no one has mentioned - there's 15 years of posts on here. Back in the day one had to ask. Nowadays, as people keep pointing out, one can just search.
The magic Café has gone from forum to resource. If you were new and really wanted to know the answer you'd search google... I just did a google search for 'best mentalism peek book' - this is what it turned up: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......forum=15 So, this place is also a victim of its own success. You can find pretty much everything you need to know on here, as everything apart from the absolutely latest stuff has been discussed. |
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Last Laugh Inner circle Grass Valley, California 3498 Posts |
RE: Bob,
I just mean that with him here, others were more likely to take place in discussion. He was very much like a (mostly) patient parent who tolerated and answered many of the same questions repeatedly. That attitude of personal guidance IMO fosters creativity and invites newcomers to the art. And without newcomers there will be no new growth. Everyone had to start somewhere, and it's tough to know how to learn everything from archived forum posts. That's not to say there's not an enormous amount of wisdom here on the Café, just that personal connections, direct guidance and active conversations -- even if it's stuff that's been discussed -- are very valuable. It's probably better for him to be focused elsewhere, and I totally honor that. I'm not personally looking for anything more from him, the amount of teaching many of us have received from his body of work is already enormous and it's all out there, as you say Iain. I just see a correlation to his reduced participation and the quality of discussion.
My Mentalism Podcast:
The Mystery Arts Podcast Check out my products! Direct from me (PW: cassidy) On Penguin Magic |
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David Thiel Inner circle Western Canada...where all that oil is 4005 Posts |
You guys should have been here in the olden days. This forum was a much tougher place. If someone asked a stupid or disrespectful question...there was nothing left but charred earth and a little mound of softly moaning would-be mentalist. A number of people (me included) worked to make it a little less soul twisting for mentalism newbies...and this is what we've wound up with.
I was very uncomfortable posting here in the early days and spent two months lurking and swooping down on any morsels of information left by those who had a significantly lower sense of self survival. I don't think of this as a morgue...but it's certainly not the place it once was -- which, in the final analysis, is both good and bad. It's bad in the sense that the cohesive sense of community that was once so strong really has been eroded. Bad in the loss of so many wise people who had so much experience and knowledge to share. I expect they just got tired. I, for one, really miss Bob's thoughts here. But it's good in the sense that people can come here and learn the things they want to learn. And I'm always interested in hearing from someone who REALLY does respect mentalism and wants to learn about it...but have completely run out of patience for the ones that come to start a fight, simply want to hear themselves talk or ask questions when they have no interest in answers. I think as you begin to realize that there is considerably less life in front of you than what's behind you, using your time wisely becomes significantly more important. Who has time for that kind of nonsense anyway? David
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you.
My books are here: www.magicpendulums.com www.MidnightMagicAndMentalism.com |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
Quote:
On Apr 19, 2016, David Thiel wrote: Trust me, this was all done far before Bob decided to pull out, that was just the icing on the cake. It should've also been the final wake-up call to what Brehaut has brought up here. This has been going on for several years now, so much so that it has become the accepted norm here, and few remember the beauty and pride of Penny before all of this. David reminds us and brings up some excellent points. Yes, David is correct, today guys cry and whine when given the truth and dose of reality. They don't want to admit that the mentalism world they want isn't real. All are not equal. Today you hear these guys say "you've got to earn my respect" when talking about the pros that they don't care for what they're being told. No, the more experienced do not need to earn your respect, your respect should be a given towards them even if you don't care for the person or what they're telling you, it's their status and experience in the industry, whether you like them/it or not. It does come down to experience as experience creates the truth. All of the hotshot, know it all guys of today can fake only so much to pretend they're on the same levels as others but it is the experience that makes the difference. You can fake or rush experience. There is no substitute for experience. In another recent thread I discussed being a member of the 5000 club. 5000 performances is a live performance milestone that few achieve. Perhaps it;s like the 500 home run club in major league baseball. And I'm talking about 5000 real full-length shows, not these silly street, ambush or bar/pub things today's guys call "shows." I also remember, and it was not very long ago, when a newcomer sat in the corner and cherish the opportunity to be near or around those with such experience and trust me - they didn't talk, they wouldn't dare, they would sit and listen and observe without ever saying a word unless spoken to. This is how the art was learned and you were more than appreciative for such an opportunity. You wouldn't be able to sleep at night and if someone spoke to you or made reference or paid you a compliment, it made your year! It also created emories that would last your lifetime. This is what has been stripped of the community here. Remember threads where Becker, Docc, Banachek, Osterlind, Earle, Hickok, Bernstein, Alberstat, Cassidy and so many others would regularly participate? Where discussions were on the level of the true worker not the theorist or armchair guys? They learned more by listening and typically only chimed in to show appreciation and say thanks. Nothing was owed to them, they had no right to anything, but the process of learning and gratitude to those who were doing the teaching, sharing and holding court. Today's guys would have left holding their groins. Today people feel to entitled, too argumentative and unaccepting that they or what they think or say could actually be bad for the art and this forum. I would love to see this restored back to what it one was. It was powerful and you had a sense of pride just to be here. You understood we were not all peers and that gave newer guys something to strive for and towards. Today these guys gather at he PEA and the sharing continues without all the noise and entitled wave. So it does still exist in all its glory, just not here anymore. I also think what today's guys accept has mentalism as extremely lowered the bar and very few pros and experienced guys I know want any part of that. And no all had not been said and discussed. Sure there is a wealth to be read form past posts but much of it was at its time basic and foundational. There is much more than can be said and advanced level that still remain unchartered if it could ever get back to the right elements. |
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John C Eternal Order I THINK therefore I wrote 12945 Posts |
Quote:
On Apr 19, 2016, celebrity wrote: It's not possible that your posts lack in appeal. It MUST be something else. Something else. I will put a list together of possibilities. My posts however are meaningful and intriguing. J |
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MagicalEducator Veteran user 369 Posts |
Everything was so much better in the good old days...when my friends all agreed with me. The Café is a mostly good place to come but it's certainly not the place for deep learning or mentorship to occur. To think that people might come here and not participate in discussions is totally lacking in any semblance of reality. People come and go to groups for various reasons but mostly because all things have a natural life cycle and it's time to move on.
Jeff
Voted "Canada's Most Inspirational Magician"
www.MagicalEducator.com Check out my column "Magic is Education" in Vanish Magazine |
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Alwow Special user Los Angeles 544 Posts |
I agree with most of what has been said already in particularly Mindpro's thoughts. Something that's been on my mind for a while is (and I'm sure many won't agree are may take offense to this but...) how many people seem to be impressed with in my opinion mediocre effects. I won't call myself a hobbyist or casual performer since I rarely perform for friends or even friend's friends. If they want to see me I'll schedule a time for them to see me perform at the Castle (many of you know what I mean by that). Otherwise I've been focused on developing my parlor and potential stage show. With that said many of the effects I see people clamoring over (i.e. the ton of which hand variants that seem to be released on a weekly basis) that seem to be in my opinion "ok" effects but generally lack the real "punch" I'm looking for.
Thus; because I can't relate or really understand the hype over many of the things discussed or released, I simply stay quiet.
"Everything I show you is the truth... And the truth is the loveliest of lies"
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
Oh, you're not alone. That's part of the root of the problem is those that could (and did) contribute won't because of the current state and the mediocrity and self-hype of exactly which you speak.
We remember when this place was utilized and ruled by mentalists, not magicians. |
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Ed_Millis Inner circle Yuma, AZ 2292 Posts |
I read a lot here, but I don't ask many questions here.
I'm not sure I have enough grasp of the basics to ask an intelligent question. And if I did, I'm not sure I'd understand the answer. Magic tricks are easy. This is a different world with different physics. Understanding that there are differences was my first step. Now I read - and largely stay silent - while I try to understand what those are. Ed |
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DynaMix Inner circle 1148 Posts |
I think you are spot on Alwow. Recently raised the same issue with the same type of effect in one of my local mentalism meetings.
I think some people just tend to be excited by method, and I can't really fault them for that personally. When a method appears to be manageable, maybe impromptu, maybe utilizing an already learned skill - whenever it "fits" into that person's portfolio of experience - they will naturally get excited. I totally agree however the effects, particularly which hand, lack the HIT many of us are looking for. I feel this ties into my earlier point regarding mentalism. It requires a shift off of this "new method" viewpoint in order to advance. Once you learn a few good ways to steal info, influence choice, etc - are you done? No of course not, but you start getting less excited with every new tear that comes out or every new i**re***** p** that arrives. I vaguely remember this happening with card magic when I was a young adult, but the "over saturation boiling point" was much higher. There DOES get to be a point where you've learned enough double lifts and card controls and you realize the effort to learn every new one just stops being worth it. You know what the strongest routines are and suddenly that 14th phase of ambitious card using electrical tape stops mattering. With mentalism for many of us I assume, the "meat" is far more than that. definitely more dependent on inspiration and "potential" - and as Last Laugh very astutely pointed out, I think hearing from the greats has a lot more impact in mentalism. |
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brehaut Inner circle kentucky 2531 Posts |
Thanks for all the comments. I find each one interesting. Keep one other thing in mind----we all love mentalism. It should fun to discuss it and share thoughts. Not every post has to be about a new method, a never discussed subject. It is enjoyable to read thoughts about anything related to mentalism. It could be thoughts on a book revisited, the reaction of a spectator, ideas to explore, the creative process, etc
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
I also believe there is some confusion with regard to what should be discussed where. There are now three mentalism forums, and I completely understand not wanting to discuss methods, secrets and titles here in the publicly searchable forums. This is for general mentalism topics. Reviews now have a special section. So this should get back to foundational aspects as it once was. No reviews, no plugging or self-promoting, ho hype (that's what Mentally Speaking is for to me). I also believe the providing of youtube and performance links should be banned fro this publicly searchable forum to stop directing the merely curious to such discussions. This is where things get compromised.
As I said earlier, definition and respect would be the first step. |
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celebrity Inner circle 1961 Posts |
Thanks Brehaut for this thought provoking topic. I've been rushed off my feet of late but wanted to chime in with some thoughts.
First of all, hats off to you (Brehaut) for your comments about positivity and the suggestion of being nicer to people. Whilst many are quick to identify problems, sadly there are few who seek to address them and you are certainly one of the minority. I jotted some notes down as I was reading through the posts so apologies in advance if they jump back and forth a bit. As mentioned above there are several key reasons why I don't post here often, some key ones are as follows - I have opened discussions that have been moved and several deleted, some which I respectfully thought should stay (as they were very much in line with other topics on this thread). If I am honest I felt a little victimised by this but did not complain as it is the Café rules andI must abide by them respectfully too. These posts included such things as sharing free ideas and routines of a mental nature. I am (was) a member of another group (which I haven't visited in a long while) which deletes members if they do not contribute, I am not saying that the same should happen here but I do think that it encourages regular input. With the whole (anti)social nature of the world Facebook groups (I am a member of 74 (sadly no joke)) plus twitter, linked in etc there are often too few hours in the day for people to devote time to keeping on top of everything. People who are new to this game possibly come looking for guidance, sure they may say the wrong thing or start off on the wrong foot (especially the younger ones) and when they receive a negative reception (as Brehaut mentions) some will get very defensive and worse still others will perhaps leave and join the YouTube tutorial ranks which only serve to perpetuate the problems where no crediting is given, originators aren't respected, poor technique is learned and then passed down getting progressively worse in true chinese whisper style and when they do end up learning from someone with real knowledge and skill on Youtube it is generally a knock off video which has been ripped from a DVD. This then leads to a whole new level of bad. Sadly the world is changing, its a quick fix world where people are impatient and want everything in an instant, the internet is largely responsible for this. Look at download sales as an example. In a like for like comparison I am learning the guitar using interactive computer software that gives me live feedback. Compare this with those that picked up the guitar many years ago who didn't have access to a tutor of any sort and had to be self taught. It is easy to see why they could become jealous/jaded by the modern approach yet these are the times we live in. The other cause for negativity is the amount of crap being touted (and those that dislike me and my material can pop me in that box and I will still love you and share a beer if your open to it) is the fact that it is so easy to produce material, you can produce a book within 24hrs, a DVD in less time and out source materials to make a gimmick. When you see so much of what you don't like it is easy to take offence, instead of doing so try to keep the threads of the material you would like people to see at the top by commenting on them. I have lost count of the amount of threads I read where I have to wade through countless argumentative and bickering posts to find valuable insight into wether something may suit me. As many have mentioned before me its not the effects that count, its the performance/performer and their ability to connect with the audience. If you perform and effect and it gets a poor response is it a bad trick or a bad performer/performance. Sadly many get an effect and go out and perform it without giving it the time it deserves. So if you have bought an effect/book etc, give it some TLC and time before posting your comments. The other option is to do what a lot of people do, think of all the things you like, find people who are giving them praise and only respect their views, not the views of newcomers. Or don't follow the instant gratification rush, no one is forcing you to buy anything, wait until you have seen it in person first, even if that takes a year, at least you can then make a very informed choice without having to resort to highly critical posts. On that note to promote positive vibes why not make an effort only to post positive thoughts for one month. Sharing positivity breeds positivity. It is very catching. On the contrary, upset someone and you will likely put them in a bad mood and conversely they will in turn be more likely to post negative comments. What goes around comes around. When people seek help, I like to help them to the best of my ability and where I can't I will refer them accordingly. Also please realise that some of this negativity mightn't be negativity at all. Some people are just very poor communicators and it can be easy to get the wrong end of the stick. DOES THIS LOOK LIKE SHOUTING? to some it can, to others its just something written in capitals because the retired pensioner is new to this and has just forgot to turn off his caps lock. Sure there are some that are who are just out to cause an argument but as my gran used to say, it takes two to argue, people soon tire if you leave them by themselves. Others may have just had a bad day at work or a stressful one and are looking to vent somewhere, others like the power trip but my grans motto stays true in all cases. Sure everyone has an opinion, but think twice before you post, if you don't like it feel free to express your opinion, but also respect that others opinions can and often will differ greatly. One of the first comments about my book was a very negative review. I contacted the guy personally rather than attacking him on the forum (use your pm's wisely). In the end we agreed that our opinions still differed but we did say we would have a beer together if we ever met. No one died and I had huge respect for him and his honesty. I will say it again, if someone has a difference of opinion, they aren't attacking you, they just don't share your views. I personally know several Café members who have had arguments on here and know for sure if they met in a bar they would get on like a house on fire (and I have seen this happen too). At one of my mentalism events several lecturers including me gave a different approach/reasoning to why someone should write down their thought. Luke comment was gold. He asked who in the room liked Paul McCartney. No one raised their hand. Luke commented to the effect that this never stopped Paul selling any records. He works to the crowd who love him and his style of music. The same is true for mentalism/mental magic styles. We should only concern ourselves with doing the best job for those that are interested in our work rather than waste our energy trying to convert those that prefer a different approach. The vast majority on here will be hobbyists and collectors of secrets, that is a fact that we have to live with. Maybe the Penny needs some subforums? the range/spectrum of topics discussed in here that lead to negative posts may be because this is a deaden street which several crossroads lead too. This is more of an issue of diversity or lack of in the topic range after all, mentalism is a very broad subject that perhaps needs further classification as mentioned above. This brings me onto the next point, sadly the term mentalism or mentalist is as widely used as street magic. You can now buy mentalism magic kits, look at Dynamo and his recent show, the vast majority was mental magic as most would classify it. Do a quick google search for free mentalism tutorials and it is very easy to see how the line between mental magic and mentalism has been blurred. As such I personally don't think it is fair to criticise peoples views if that is how they are brought into it. Once again, can you blame a youngster for picking up the wrong end of the stick. If change is to happen sadly people (include me in there if you like) need to be educated without ridicule. To be a successful performer you really need to be a people person yet it is amazing how many professionals don't give off this vibe (even if unintentional). As a creator I have found my most creative periods to be those in which I distance myself from everyone. This is the reason I left the local magic circle years ago, it is so easy to be lead/absorbed by others thoughts. Sometimes a break is needed by us all to recharge your batteries. If you feel worked up over something, take time out, go on holliday, take up yoga, pray. What ever makes you feel better about yourself that doesn't have any detriment to others, DO IT! Another possible reason for lack of posts is that most people who have been in this game for a while come to realise that they are no longer interested in the effects but are more interested in the performance and psychology of performance, how to script a routine. Sadly there aren't many posts of this nature. If you took away all the posts about effects you would sadly be left with very little. However the newcomers are often all about the effects, this upsets the previous lot and so the vicious circle continues. So lets have more posts on the things that count and we can either educate the newcomers in the right way or **** them off so they leave (either way a win win (all tongue in cheek)). Also is any of the admins in the position to check the growth of the Café membership? I know several younger members who claim they can't get in due to email issues. This could affect post count too. I am not speaking with any insider knowledge here but I can imagine the greats such as Bob, Osterlind, Banachek, Maven will receive countless pm's, answering all of them personally would take too much energy and so this could be a partial factor. Lets take up some of that slack and share the burden by being more helpful. Just in case it affects your judgement of me I wan’t to clarify the below, I will still buy you a beer or a coffee all the same - From the UK (guilty), influenced by “Derren” (guilty as charged) I simply admire his approach just as others admire Annemanns, Fogels, Corrinda etc (and I refer here strictly to the early shows). Magic Methods in Mental Magic routines (guilty as charged) I don’t believe in discarding any tool without trying it first (just my opinion) Which Hand hype (guilty) though I think my contributions take it away from more that an 50/50 location (which is highly uninteresting). Do I respect those who came before me? (If someone shows respect to others then they have mine). Sadly there are those that are in a position of authority that abuse that too, it is not a quality that I admire. Do I create and sell mentalism, mental magic, magic or just a load of old tat that isn’t worth a dime? That is for the individual to decide. Point is, we are all different and I love that we are. My best friend is a magician and hates almost everything I do. But we are friends and that is all that counts. Closing thoughts - Remember, it costs nothing to be nice! Love to all Michael
As a mentalist you must always ask yourself what if! And throughout your life you should seek to ask and answer this question over and over again, only then will your wildest dreams become a reality!
Visit - www.mindfx.co.uk to learn more! |
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brehaut Inner circle kentucky 2531 Posts |
Michael----really awesome post. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. And I love the "only positive comments" for a month. Some will say--nothing wrong with being critcal, etc. We certainly have tried that. However, it also can't hurt trying a new approach and see what can happen. After all, the one constant theme is that we on the site can do better. Sign me up for a positive vibe month.
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DynaMix Inner circle 1148 Posts |
Amazing post Michael. I can't believe any person would consider you nothing but professional, inspiring, and IMO extremely creative. Your books and effects are amongst my favorites personally.
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Robb Inner circle 1291 Posts |
Good post, Michael. I feel there is a lot of bickering on this forum and a lot of negativity that is pointless and repetitive. I often wonder what the origin of it all is and I think I have a good theory.
Performing magic or mentalism requires a lot of skills but what it requires possibly more than anything is confidence. Confidence in your performance mindset, confidence in your methods, confidence in your very reasons for even performing. So when someone comes along and pokes at that confidence by disagreeing with a particular aspect of your approach (methods included, but certainly beyond that), it can really sting. We sort of build up this bubble of confidence and then someone comes along and pops it (or tries to pop it!) by telling us that we're doing it all wrong OR that we're not professionals so wouldn't understand OR that our particular motivation for performing mentalism is misguided OR that we simply don't know what "real" mentalism is, etc... That's not going to go well. In other words, we're all rather primed to be sensitive to anything that undermines the confidence we've gained or are gaining. Hence, things get out of hand quickly. I don't know what the solution for that is or if there even IS a solution, but if we want this forum to be useful and pleasant, I think we need to be aware of the psychology behind the bickering. It's not enough to simply tell ourselves "be nice"... Because we'll still be having those feelings and they'll eat at us. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
How we view our own mentalism is a kind of belief system, attack a belief system and see where it gets you...
The greatest shame is that some people haven't got a good enough mentalism education and are afraid of trying things out for themselves. Whereas that is what will help you progress. There is a baseline of what classic mentalism is. However, even amongst the heroes hall of fame, they are all different and all break some of the rules we often get told. So no wonder people get confused.
I've asked to be banned
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Robb Inner circle 1291 Posts |
Iain, it's true that it's a belief system, but it's a belief system that has some seriously painful consequences if we have doubts. Because the next time you perform your cherished routine that somebody shot holes here in Penny, that is going to be in the back of your head and that little loss of confidence can have a big effect on your performance. I would assume that virtually everyone that posts here performs in *some context* and should realize that being comfortable and confident is key.
Now, to a degree there's a "head in the sand" possibility here. Someone really bad at performing might believe they're really good. Or they might think their mentalism is "emotional" when it's really hokey and boring, or maybe they really are presenting what is clearly (to some) mental magic and not mentalism at all. So maybe It's a bit of a reality check as well when they read something that conflicts with their self image and that can be painful. OR maybe they really are a FANTASTIC performer - like I am (!) - but they do things outside of the box, don't obsess over categorical absolutes (magic/mentalism), think it's okay to draw attention to the role of letters in an anagram (ha, ha!) or feel no need to justify writing things down, using cards, etc. They just make it work and what works for them might not work for anyone else BUT them. Either way, it's a confidence shaker when others "attack" your paradigms and, for better or worse, is going to affect how you perform and it's going to affect the way you communicate here. All that said, I think there IS a way to talk about mentalism without overtly attacking views we don't agree with or find useful, but it's actually pretty challenging to do. And finally, I think some degree of bickering and disagreement is fine. I am not looking for a bunch of Polly Anna's or a Penny that is all love and light all the time. Some intense arguments can be worth it. There will be blood. ;-) But in general, I think we need to be aware of the need for being gentle with others, respecting their performance experience and context, trying to be truly positive and offering helpful thoughts, not just being critical for the sake of being critical. Basically, the golden rule at work. I will say that I do find some of the more experienced pro's who have been around a long time sometimes don't get the respect they deserve and we less experienced performers treat them as equals when really they are not. At the same time, some of those experience pro's can be quite pompous and embed insults in their "helpful" advice then deny doing so (maybe they just don't see it?). So the dynamic going on between the pro's and the "amateurs" can cause further tension. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
I am a very good cartomancer and it took me a while to admit it and realise it. I love close up and personal. And I have educated myself, and I'm more than lucky to have some pro's as friends. I kinda don't care what any faceless Herbert does or says to me. I know what I know and am always up for constructive criticism. I do things that suit me, and are an extension of me. I am only ever hear to brainstorm ideas and talk...
If someone decides to be egotistical, snotty or condescending then they can go whistle...
I've asked to be banned
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Robb Inner circle 1291 Posts |
That's a good attitude, Iain, but unfortunately pretty atypical. Most of us have fragile ego's and when it comes to performance art, where the stakes for ego are pretty high, we tend to be even more sensitive than we might be over other topics, even politics or religion.
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