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Brian Proctor
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I'm sorry if this offends anyone out there, but I just want to say that I think it's ridiculous that everytime I turn around people who get offended by Christian values try to condemn them by using political power. Well I am tired of it.

I will sadly reject saying the pledge of allegiance to a country that is Not UNDER GOD. That is, if they do end up changing the pledge. This is a terrible time to even try to take God out of our land. Especially not now, if ever. Which I would not support either.

God was the base for this country's foundation. Why do you think we are such a super power today? Anyway, I don't mean to offend anyone. But I think it's time I voiced myself. If anyone else out there wants to stand up and help protect our wonderful pledge, please go to http://www.falwell.com

There is a petition to get 1,000,000 signatures to help preserve the pledge. So I call out to anyone who cares about the history, the values, and the heritage of our country to please help out. Christian brothers and sisters, and my loved Magic Cafe family members, I thank you for hearing me out.

If someone were to take away magic from us as well, would you stand up for it? Stand up for what you believe in...
RiffClown
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In my shows, the Pledge of Allegiance has to be said correctly for the mismade flag to turn out right. I forwarded the link to all of my family and friends.

I don't always see eye to eye with Falwell, but this is different.
Rob "Riff, the Magical Clown" Eubank aka RiffClown
<BR>http://www.riffclown.com
<BR>Magic is not the method, but the presentation.
Brian Proctor
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I don't always see eye to eye with Falwell either. But I want to stand up for my beliefs as well as the integrity of my American heritage. Thanks for supporting Riff.
Peter Marucci
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Since your money is imprinted with the slogan "In God We Trust", it must also be unconstitutional, too.
Therefore, it can't be used.
So send me all your money, up here in Canada, and I will see that it gets a good home. Smile
cheers,
Peter Marucci
showtimecol@aol.com
RiffClown
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SHHHHHH Peter, Don't give them a new target......... Smile Smile
Rob "Riff, the Magical Clown" Eubank aka RiffClown
<BR>http://www.riffclown.com
<BR>Magic is not the method, but the presentation.
Margarette
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OK, first..LET ME SAY THAT I ABHOR THE RULING ABOUT THE PLEDGE!! Most of you are aware that I have a full stage magic show devoted to the American Flag. Now, in order to put this show together properly, I did extensive research on most aspects of The Flag. I don't say all because I am in no way complete in my research. But, I would like to share with everyone a few points about Francis Bellamy, the author of The Pledge of Allegiance.

1892: The Pledge was penned in 1892 as part of a program he chaired (he was chairman of a committee of state superintendants in the National Education Association) for the public school's quadricentennial celebration for Columbus Day.

ORIGINAL PLEDGE: "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty, and justice for all."

In 1923 and 1924, the National Flag Conference changed the words of the Pledge from "my Flag" to "the Flag of the United States of America". Bellamy did not like this change, but his protests were ignored.

1954: the words "under God" were added to the Pledge. Now, since Bellamy died in 1931, he could not protest this change. However, his granddaughter said he would not have liked the change because he was forced out of his church in 1891 (he was a Baptist minister) and later in life completely dropped out of church "because he disliked the bigotry he found there."

Like I said, I abhor this ruling, and have already signed and forwarded the petition. But, I just thought I would share some bits of info on Francis Bellamy and the Pledge of Allegiance that a lot of people are not aware of. If anyone would like more information, I got more. E-mail or PM me if you would like more information.

Margarette

p.s. I also got lots of information on the Star Spangled Banner!! Smile
The only stupid question is the one not asked.
Harry Murphy
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Cool, I’m not offended and hope will not offend, and I do understand the emotional component of the issue, but…

I had difficulty as a child when they put that “under god” in the pledge of allegiance to the flag of the United States of America! IT WAS NOT ALWAYS THERE!!!

Honestly, I had trouble (and got into trouble!) remembering to put it in! I actually got paddled (yep they did that in those “good old days”!) for not remembering. Then for years I couldn’t remember which version was the right one! I thought it foolish to mess with the pledge then and I think it foolish to mess with it now!

Christian values? This was not about Christian values or any religion’s values for that matter. It was about protecting you and me from a State Church! Or rather from the State endorsement of a Church. If you really want to see what a Church run state is like go to Iran, or remember Afghanistan of just a few months ago! The concept of separation of state and church is what is at issue. It is one of the very building blocks that the founding fathers stressed. Thomas Jefferson believed that people should be free from religion! That is, from the oppression of religion.

Don’t forget that the history of the USA is made up of thousands who fled to this country to escape being persecuted by State Religions! Christian based State Religions. Thousands of Protestants fled Europe to escape murder by Catholic’s. And in the past century Jewish people fled their homelands to escape persecution and murder by good Christians. Other good Christians living in other nations stood by watching and knowing and allowed this to be persecution and murdered to occur. I could go on and on with examples of Protestants killing non-Protestants simply because they were of a different Protestant sect or the percussion of the Mormons including an attempt by Congress (of the USA) to not allow Utah to become a state simply because they (Utah) were “non-Christians”. But you know all that!

While I find the whole removal thing silly on the surface, I do understand where the court is coming from. Frankly, I would like to go back to the old pledge of my childhood!
The artist formally known as Mumblepeas!
BroDavid
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Congratualtions on taking a stand on solid ground CoolMoney!

The "Establishment Clause" was intended to keep the Government from establishing a religion forced on American citizens. It was never intended to force removal of all traces of God and religion from American Society!

If Enron, Worldcom, etc. execs in Business, and Bill Clinton, and some of the others in recent politics, had asked themselves "What would Jesus do?" or simply desired to honor God, rather than exercise self-gratification and glory in greed, things might have been different.

Maybe this most outrageous power play by the most reversed court in the land will be the wake up call to remind Americans that this Nation was formed to escape religious persecution, not to provide a platform for liberals to persecute religion.

But at the end of the day, the problem is not so much that some enlightened liberal has decided to take the words out of the Allegiance, (those are just words) but the real problem is that many of us have already allowed God to fall into second place (or third, or .....) as they covet wealth, and Power, lust of the flesh, and the pride of life in our hearts.

And Peter makes a great point. Our Money says, In God we trust." But we hold on to the money a lot harder than we try to hold on to God, or God's Word!

Thanks for speaking out! "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing! Edmund Burke"

We all need to stop doing nothing!

God Bless You!

BroDavid
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
Harry Murphy
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Brother David, I do agree with all you say. Especially with what would …Buddha do, or Mohammad do, or Moses do, or the Krishna do, or The Goddess do? What would any good moral person do?

Morality does not belong to people who go to church. In point of fact, the former president of ENRON, his wife and family are pillars of their church. They support it and are seen as good examples of that particular faith. Many of the vice presidents and their families are also considered themselves good church members and moral people!

I strongly agree with your quote from Edmund Burke, so much so, that it bears repeating, “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing!”

In this case, that is exactly what caused this tempest! A good, moral man stood up and did something against what he perceived to be evil! There is moral courage there!
The artist formally known as Mumblepeas!
Brian Proctor
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Thank you all for commenting. And sharing your thoughts. I respect them all.
BroDavid
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Yes, Mumblepeas, I absolutely agree with you that Morality does not belong only to people who go to church.

The problem is certainly not that there are not enough people in church. And your reference to the Church attendance of Enron officials cements the fact that the problem is; that there is not enough of "the Church" in people today!

Too many people say I am good because I go to church. Or, I am this, or I am that, because I ocassionally or even regularly go into a building designed to house those who are "good".

If that was true, then anyone who ever went into a garage, would be qualifed as a car!

I won't go too far with this thought here, but I would only ask; If people call themselves "good moral people", what is their authority for deciding "good", and "moral" behavior? Think about it.

And remember that you can not support a point solely on the basis of using that same point as evidence to prove itself. Smile

Praise God for Moral Outrage that is fed by Moral Courage!

BroDavid
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
Harry Murphy
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I totally agree with you. It’s not the people in the church (synagogue, temple, mosque, sacred grove, etc…) but the church in the people!

Unfortunately when it comes to "my dogma can beat your dogma" and every body better live by my dogma or else, it is more about power and control than about the Devine or morality! That attempt to force us all into a one-religion dogma is exactly what the US Constitution protects its citizens from!
The artist formally known as Mumblepeas!
kou
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Not to downplay what is obviously an important issue to some people, but...

How many people here have actually ever recited the Pledge of Allegiance on a regular basis since elementary school?

Just wondering,
kou
Margarette
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Ummm......I do
The only stupid question is the one not asked.
Harry Murphy
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Good question! I have recited the Pledge of Allegiance on a regular basis since elementary school. I tend to work in environments where it is seen as the right thing to do! I do not think that a month has passed in my life, since I was 7 years old, when I did not make the pledge at least once. I think that counts for “regular basis.”

Whether the pledge has been recited once or a million times does not negate the underlying issue being addressed by the courts and discussed here. For many, this is an emotional issue that is indicative of moral decay and a loss of true American (USA) values and an attack on religion itself on one side and the eroding of freedoms and the encroachment of the Federal Government on the other. Like most issues of this nature, on the surface it appears rather silly and simple, but it is truly serious and complex beneath that surface.
The artist formally known as Mumblepeas!
Peter Marucci
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One issue that might be raised here is that just exactly when did "God" become a Christian figure?
Is not God germane to Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Pagans, Wiccans, Hindus, Druids, or any other belief, religion, creed, etc.?
Only atheists might be exempt.
And if the pledge of allegiance is "verboten", then does this also apply to any address by any politican -- including the President of the United States in his State of the Union address -- which ends with "God bless America"?
cheers,
Peter Marucci
showtimecol@aol.com
kou
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Oh...... I don't.

Does that make me less of an American?

Still wondering,
kou
Greg Arce
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I'm an atheist and I can't stand this whole thing either. Whenever I see anything about another atheist trying to stop people from praying or using religious symbols I think, ""Boy, have you got it wrong." The whole point of being an atheist is to not instill these rules on words and beliefs. If this guy thinks his kid is going to convert because he hears someone use the G word then he must not really have a strong belief system. It seems to me that this guy is doing exactly what others feel is wrong about fanatical religious types... they try to force others to believe in their ways. Leave the words in. It wouldn't effect me in the least if you wanted to say them or not. To that guy who started this whole Pledge thing: Get a life! And don't bother the lives of others.
Greg
One of my favorite quotes: "A critic is a legless man who teaches running."
RiffClown
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I recently got into a big issue with an establishment because of their "Patriotic" display. They had lined a shelf with the American Flag and displayed books and other "4th of July" items on and around it.
At a glance it looked quite Patriotic, All red, white and blue. That is until one saw that the Flag was trapped, and given the status of common drapery. Upon confronting the manager about the display, I was informed that he personally researched it and it was fine in his point of view.

Now to put it into perspective. I'm an American military member stationed in Germany. The Establishment in question was AAFES (the Base Exchange). I contacted a Chief Master Sergeant whom I trust with pictures of the display and a few emails later I got a response from the regional manager of AAFES. The display was being redone ASAP along with a short apology for the managers words and disrespect.

It's amazing how quickly we forget the events of just over nine months ago. For the first time in many decades we were united as one people with one heart. Let us never forget the price of our freedom for it was paid in blood.

BroDavid is right on target when he references Freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.

As long as they have tests in school, there will be "Prayer" in school and as long as I have breath, there will be prayer in my house and in my heart.

God, Bless the USA!
Rob "Riff, the Magical Clown" Eubank aka RiffClown
<BR>http://www.riffclown.com
<BR>Magic is not the method, but the presentation.
Greg Arce
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Hey, I reread my last post and realized that one point was rather vague. I was not attacking Coolmoney for starting this thread. I was attacking the idiot father that chose to take his small mind to court. I would never bash anyone on this site for voicing their opinions. Arguing, bickering, verbal fisticuffs, even catfighting, is okay by me, but don't bring the law into it. Finish the argument, shake hands and agree to disagree. It's a short life so why make new enemies? Coolmoney and all others on this site, keep up the good fight.
Greg
One of my favorite quotes: "A critic is a legless man who teaches running."
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