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0pus Inner circle New Jersey 1739 Posts |
I guess my comment went over your head.
I was quoting Graham Chapman and using his words to mock your superior tone toward Bob. You purport to have a complete command of all intellectual property laws throughout the world because you used to be a librarian. It is abundantly clear you do not. |
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Race Blakhart Special user Selma,CA 624 Posts |
Tally, how are you going to call someone a troll, and then use the same schoolyard tactics of making fun of their accent? You are obviously educated, and use that to your advantage when debating folks here, but that doesn't change the fact that you just did the exact same thing the "trolls" are doing.
I am not here to debate. I don't have a dog in this race at all. But that was just too obvious not to point out. Not to mention, an accent doesn't make the man. Obviously. Now where was that dang topic everyone dropped? |
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Tally_NSA Loyal user Essex, UK 222 Posts |
Quote:
On May 13, 2016, Race Blakhart wrote: Yep, you are right - I did it! Guilty as charged! Sorry about that. My only defence is: To Err is Human. I should have just stuck to my golden rule and not engaged with the trolls on any level. |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
I'm back to being confused about the law now. Lol.
Tally, in the UK then, does the magic circle library have to get authorial and publisher permission for its stock? Is there any way to find out, via public records, if they actually have obtained said permissions? Opus, I have to admit I thought I did detect a hint of racism in your mock English, Pythonesque or not. I hope it was just my over-sensitive nature! Anyway, everyone take a deep breath ... And back to the facts. Which we have a dispute over, and so which leave ps me none the wiser. Drat. Mastermindreader: Given that you are happy with magic libraries stocking your work without your permission, do you assume that all other magic book authors are likewise happy? Is it generally accepted in the magic fraternity that one's writings can and will be used for free (and the secrets within learnt for free) by a large number of other magi (who are presumably one's target market)? |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
This might raise a secondary ethical issue: should magic club members be happy to read materials and learn secrets for free, knowing they don't have the author's permission to do so?
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
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On May 13, 2016, Tally_NSA wrote: Not so much trolls as you engaged in a needless measuring contest. But to be fair would we be safe in saying that there might be an answer that is correct in one country and that same answer incorrect in another. Neither person putting forth either answer being wrong for their geographic location?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Josh Riel Inner circle of hell 1995 Posts |
Now Danny... you're trying to pit countries against one another in your insane demand for a singular understanding Terrible Wizard was originally asking about?
There were many grammatical errors there and I choose not to focus on my issues but everyone else's. Also, the hat you are wearing looks silly.
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Tally- For a guy who has only been a member here for two months, you seem to be quick to take offense and quick to insult.
I was an attorney in the United States, not the UK. I was, in fact, involved quite a bit with copyright law and litigation. And in law school, it was, along with criminal and constitutional law, one of my areas of special concentration. (In fact, I finished in the top three percent of my class in those areas.) Later, when I became a full time performer, author, and lecturer, I frequently have had to defend my intellectual property. Since I copyright all of my own works, I am still very current on the law. All of my responses are directed to your incorrect statement that all countries have laws similar to the UK Library Act. Regarding books that some may find offensive- In the US, libraries often voluntarily keep such books in restricted stacks so that they are only available upon request. Also, when certain groups are offended by materials in a library they are free to challenge the inclusion of those works in a library's collection. A libel case against a library arising from materials in its books would be a direct violation of the free speech provisions of first amendment to the US Constitution. (Note that US libel laws are significantly different from those in the UK.) For extensive resources on this issue, see the following site of the American Library Foundation: http://www.ala.org/advocacy/intfreedom/c......ntissues See: http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/0......nd/?_r=0 I hope you find these resources useful. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Terrible Wizard wrote:
Quote:
Where did I state that I was happy with magic libraries stocking [my] work without [my] permission? I simply answered your questions to the extent that they involved copyright law and libraries. But I can't say I have a problem with it, either, as I, myself, have spent countless hours in magic libraries, public libraies, private libraries, and even the Library of Congress poring over the classics in our art. There aren't that many magic libraries in the world as you seem to think, and, to the best of my knowledge, my physical hard cover books are only to be found in about six American public libraries, because I don't market them to the public or publish them through companies that routinely provide library copies. My seventy+ digital works, including DVDs, CDs, eBooks and digital downloads are protected by the Digital Millenium copyright act and may not be loaned out to anyone if such lending involve making or transmitting a copy of the work. When I first started in magic, I spent several days a week in public and school libraries. That's where, for example, I discovered Greater Magic and The Amateur Magicians Handbook. But nowadays it seems like the new generation would rather learn from YouTube than making the effort to go to libraries or join the IBM, SAM, PEA, The Academy of Magicals Arts, etc., to avail themselves of the materials in their collections. Without libraries, I never would have found a starting place on my life's journey. If you're concerned about exposure, remember the old adage, "The best way to hide a secret is to publish it in a book." So, no, I have no objections to serious students being able to access my materials through legitimate libraries. |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Sorry, I got the wrong end of the stick from your comment about donating to magic libraries. My bad.
But, to clarify then, you are indeed happy for your works to be placed in magic society libraries without first being asked permission. How do you respond to my second question: Do you think most other magicians are likewise happy? And to my third: Is it fair that a user read books in a magic library knowing that they don't have the author's permission? |
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Race Blakhart Special user Selma,CA 624 Posts |
Terrible Wizard, I don't see where Bob used the words "happy" once. He specifically states this at the beginning of his last post. When someone like Bob Cassidy replies to you, pay attention.
Also, why are you so invested in this? Do you plan on writing a book? Do you plan on touring these libraries? I just don't get your obsession. Like I said before, I don't have a horse in this race, but even if I did, I don't think I'd be as concerned as you. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Terrible Wizard (Do you have a real name and a photo avatar? I think it's only fair that I know who I'm taking the time to answer questions for.)-
To summarize what I've already explained in my previous posts, here are my answers to the questions you keep asking: 1.It doesn't upset me. 2. Most magic writers are ecstatic when they finally have a book released by an actual publisher, as opposed to self-published books or eBooks. To know how other authors would answer your question, though, you'd have to ask them. But maybe my answer to the next question will give you an idea of what many may tell you. 3. Yes, it's fair if the library legitimately bought or acquired - by gift, donation, bequest, etc.- the book. Once someone purchases a physical book, he can do whatever he wants with it, be it swatting flies, using it as a door stop, a seat booster for the vertically challenged, burning it, reselling it, or lending it out to whomever he pleases. This is all due to the "First-Sale Doctrine," aka, The Exhaustion Rule." Wikipedia has summed it up accurately: Quote:
...The first-sale doctrine creates a basic exception to the copyright holder's distribution right. Once the work is lawfully sold or even transferred gratuitously, the copyright owner's interest in the material object in which the copyrighted work is embodied is exhausted. The owner of the material object can then dispose of it as he sees fit. Thus, one who buys a copy of a book is entitled to resell it, rent it, give it away, or destroy it. However, the owner of the copy of the book will not be able to make new copies of the book because the first-sale doctrine does not limit copyright owner's reproduction right. The rationale of the doctrine is to prevent the copyright owner from restraining the free alienability of goods. Without the doctrine, a possessor of a copy of a copyrighted work would have to negotiate with the copyright owner every time he wished to dispose of his copy. After the initial transfer of ownership of a legal copy of a copyrighted work, the first-sale doctrine exhausts copyright holder's right to control how ownership of that copy can be disposed of. For this reason, this doctrine is also referred to as the "exhaustion rule." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine#Overview (aside to those who don't believe anything that comes from Wikipedia, you can read the actual text of the law, 17 US Code Sec 109, at https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/109 ) The reason I don't object to the free alienability of legally obtained copies of copyrighted works is explained at the end of the Wikipedia article. Without the First Sale Doctrine, the possessor of a legal "copy of a copyrighted work would have to negotiate with the copyright owner every time he wished to dispose of his copy. After the initial transfer of ownership of a legal copy of a copyrighted work, the first-sale doctrine exhausts copyright holder's right to control how ownership of that copy can be disposed of." Of course, there is another aspect to your question #3 that hasn't been considered. I have considered it though, because I'm getting old more quickly than I'd prefer and the copyrights I own will not expire until fifty years after I'm dead. Knowing that my books are in magic libraries and private collections all over the world is a poor substitute for immortality, but it's the closest I'm ever going to get. Hopefully, some of my ideas and creations will be useful to future generations of mentalists. And no one will need a spirit medium to speak to me after I've gone on to discover the greatest secret. All they have to do is open one of my books and I'll talk to them anytime they like. Maybe I'll even tell them some dirty jokes if they know the right books and page numbers. (This is hardly unique to me. You can speak with lots of dead mentalists and magicians this way.) |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Race:
Perhaps my use of the colloquial 'be happy to do X' has thrown some people, perhaps it doesn't translate in the same way from UK English to US English. It doesn't usually connote a large degree of positive emotional investment in the action, as if he took books along to the library smiling from ear to ear. Rather, it carries with it just a general sense of willingness, sometimes even a resigned willingness. I think this is an Internet communication mishap, and I apologise for it. As for me being invested in this, I'm not really. I find it an interesting ethical and practical point of discussion. I don'thave a horse in this race, merely curiosity and a desire for stimulating discussion. I'm just interested in such. mastermindreader: I keep myself anonymous on the internet both for reasons of personal security and because of my area of employment, so sorry but I prefer not to use a real name or photo. Your answer was clear, thourough and filled with useful information. Thank you for that. From my own perspective I wonder if I would be as willing to grant such largesse (maybe I'm selfish) and lost revenue, and so I question how clean my conscience would be in learning prized information for free from a borrowed book where I had no idea whether or not the author and publisher apporved. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
I can understand that. After all, why would I approve of sharing my secrets with someone who won't even share their first name with me?
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Indeed! And yet I, unfortunately, can access your secrets for free in many magic clubs. Something with that doesn't sit right.
Perhaps we've found a place of agreement! |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
And in one of those magic clubs, the next generation's Derren Brown may be reading my stuff right now.
Like I said a few posts back, I learned the basics of my art in public and school libraries, long before I even knew there were magic clubs in my area. I have no problem with paying that forward. But you seem to be unaware of the fact that the same clubs who have my books in their libraries are the ones who pay me to lecture throughout the country, many times a year. And those lectures are also tied in with sponsored public shows. (Not to forget the sales of new lecture notes, DVDs, etc.) And all of that is completely apart from my work as a consultant to high profile performers as well as up and coming talent, and the public, club, cruise ship and corporate shows I've doing since 1972. So, no, I'm not worried about losing money because of the copyright laws I happen to agree with. And that's pretty much it for me in this thread. So now you know the whole story. (I'm not usually that generous with anonymous newbies. ) Good thoughts, Bob (My real name, but spelled backwards for security reasons.) |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Ok, that's cool . And lol at Bob
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writeall Special user Midland, Michigan 930 Posts |
Spelled backwards but capitalized rightwards. Very cleverly done.
And for TW: There's an earlier decision point when it comes to revealing "owned" secrets. It's when you decide to write the book. Someone who can't bear to share won't even publish in the first place. Mr. Cassidy alluded to legacy issues. Consider how it would be if your life's work simply dissolved away, forgotten and unperformed? Contrast that with the feeling of contributing to the long line of creative efforts that are mined and reworked and become treasures for others. I'd be delighted to see a competent performer using something I created. Whether or not they paid me some pittance for the privilege wouldn't matter much. What would is if they claimed it as their own creation - hence the big deal with crediting around here. |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Thanks for the input writeall
Are you saying, then, that as a library user I should 'assume' that every author in there is happy with me reading their material, learning their secrets, and using that knowledge, without giving them a penny? I'm not sure that all magic authors are writing for the legacy or out of the goodness of their hearts, some might be doing it for money. After all, they sell those books rather than give them away, no? |
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writeall Special user Midland, Michigan 930 Posts |
I agree that money might be the primary, or even the sole motivation. I wouldn't claim to know some universal intent shared by all authors. However, we can probably assume they knew what they were getting into when they participated in the process - including the part about lending libraries. In effect, they have given permission already, regardless of how much (or little) it irritates them.
There's a related issue though, and one I think would bother me more. Suppose you purchase a book (or DVD) with a routine you like and perform it word-for-word, move-for-move, copycat style. Do you owe that creator for some of the money you make performing it? How about if you do a bad job of it, crapping all over their work with ham-handed fumbling? That would **** me off. I wouldn't mind a kind of royalty system that returns some of the value derived. Here's a hypothetical: I do a bit I took from a Penguin Live lecture. It was perfect as is. That bit (as part of a longer set) generates income. It runs about a minute and a half. We can estimate, as part of a 15 minute busking show, it generates several hundred dollars a year in profit (maybe thousands). My instinct is to thank the creator/teacher with some cash in the way of appreciation. Now, I know I put the time and effort into "working" the bit - it doesn't get performed without me in the mix. But then again, it was already polished and ready to go out of the box. I think we all have stuff like this - maybe that packet trick that gets pulled out on a moment's notice, something we love to do. Something that always delivers. Imagine if someone here at the Café had invented the thumb tip. What would we owe her? Is gratitude enough? |
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