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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » Doing tricks you havent paid for? (13 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Terrible Wizard
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Is there any sort of consensus of the ethicality of performing tricks you haven't directly paid the creator for?

Consider the following situations below and let me know if you think it 'fair' or 'not' (and add why if you're so inclined!):


a) Your mentor teaches you a trick that has been around forever and no one knows whose it is. He bought a book to learn it, but you haven't.

b) Your friend teaches you a currently marketed trick that isn't his. He learnt it from another friend, and so on.

c) You borrow a magic book from a local library, or magic club library, and learn a trick from it before returning it.

d) Your friend lends you a magic DVD. You learn a trick from it before returning it.

e) You reverse engineer a trick you see at a performance.
Danny Kazam
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I don't believe there is. The magic community has become too big and diverse to expect everyone to all have the same belief system, morals and ethics. There are some cases a majority will agree on, and other issues the majority will not agree on.
Keep your dreams alive. Understand to achieve anything requires faith and belief in yourself, vision, hard work, determination, and dedication. Remember all things are possible for those who believe.
Terrible Wizard
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True. Which way do you think the majority would go with the above scenarios?
M. Tesla
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A) You can do the trick.
B) You'll probably do the trick if you like it, like most others do, whether it's right or wrong.
C) You can do the trick.
D) You'll probably do the trick if you like it, like most others do, whether it's right or wrong.
E) You'll probably do the trick if you like it, like most others do, whether it's right or wrong.
While the amount of water has remained static, the amount of Tequila and Triple Sec available for making Margaritas has expanded enormously. So you see, we have made progress after all. ~Anonymous
Terrible Wizard
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Cheers Tessler Smile

Do you think it is wrong?
Michael Daniels
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IMO,

a) OK to perform.

b) If you are going to perform it, buy it (but your friend shouldn't have taught you it in the first place).

c) OK to perform.

d) If you are going to perform it, buy it. If it's not currently available, and the creator is still alive, ask for permission. If the creator is dead, don't perform it unless you can significantly improve the presentation or method. If it was a signature effect, don't perform it at all unless you can buy the rights.

Mike
Terrible Wizard
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Thanks Michael Smile

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning behind c being ok, but not d. Aren't they pretty much the same scenario?
Michael Daniels
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Sorry, I skipped (d). I'll try again.

a) OK to perform.

b) If you are going to perform it, buy it (but your friend shouldn't have taught you it in the first place).

c) OK to perform (but see note below).

d) If you are going to perform it, buy it.

e) If you are going to perform it, buy it. If it's not currently available, and the creator is still alive, ask for permission. If the creator is dead, don't perform it unless you can significantly improve the presentation or method. If it was a signature effect, don't perform it at all unless you can buy the rights.

Note: You could also argue that (c) if you borrow a book from a library, you should buy it (if available) before performing it. Personally, I'd be in favour of that (and usually do). But libraries are, by definition, loaning repositories, so this is rather different from (d) a friend lending you a book or DVD.

Mike
Terrible Wizard
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That's much clearer, cheers Michael Smile
M. Tesla
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Quote:
On May 26, 2016, Terrible Wizard wrote:
Cheers Tessler Smile

Do you think it is wrong?


I think A and C are okay (you can argue that C is in some form of public domain, as much is learned by new magicians from the books in libraries, and that's because the books you want later, after you've learned a bit, are not going to be found in libraries)...and Mr. Daniels, here, has great answers for B, D, and E, but in almost every example you run afoul of rights to those routines...in almost 60 years of being involved in magic I've seen quite a bit if stealing of material...there's a lot of skeevy magicians out there...and quite a lot that are honest...dunno why we attract so many skeevy ones...added to that, is the concept of buying a trick, to some degree, the inventor/author is giving you the rights to perform it, and sometimes they say to do it just the way they do, but if you adapt a routine to fit your personality then that makes it better...
While the amount of water has remained static, the amount of Tequila and Triple Sec available for making Margaritas has expanded enormously. So you see, we have made progress after all. ~Anonymous
Terrible Wizard
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So what is the key difference between performing a trick learnt from a library book, and doing a trick learnt from a book lent by a friend?
writeall
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There are differences. The library is not your friend. The librarian will penalize you for things like speaking loudly or passing wind. Your friend will just laugh. Also, the library will not help you move.
Terrible Wizard
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All true Smile.
GodSpeed23
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A) Okay to perform

B) I say buy the flippin trick

C) Completely okay to perform

D) and E) not so cool at all!

just my opinions.
Terrible Wizard
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What's the difference between C and D that makes one ok and then other not?
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On Jun 3, 2016, Terrible Wizard wrote:
What's the difference between C and D that makes one ok and then other not?


Michael answered that very question and then clarified it even further. You responded by saying that was much clearer and thanked him.

Now you go ahead and ask someone else the same question. Is this really just about stretching out a circular argument as far as possible?
Terrible Wizard
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I didn't get a substantive answer from Michael, merely thanked him for clarifying the mistake prior. I didn't expect him to give more since he had opportunity to and didn't, his opinion was that libraries were different. I can't see how. That doesn't preclude me asking others to give them the same opportunity to provide me with more substantive details.

This isn't a circular argument, indeed I don't even know what you mean by that in this context. What exactly is the purpose of your post?

What is the substantive moral difference between doing a trick from a book borrowed from a library, and a book borrowed from a friend? I honestly don't see one at present and would like to understand other people's points of view on this.
Terrible Wizard
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Let me be clearer.

Micahel provided his opinion. I didn't want to argue, so I didn't ask any follow up questions. Merely thanked him for he clarification. But I didn't find his answer convincin or adequately argued. But fair enough, so what, people disagree all the time. I don't want an argument, merely to hear other people's points of view.

So someone else gives a response to the OP, and I ask them for their reasoning, just as I asked Michael. It would be ridiculous and rude to presume that Micahel spoke for this new participant. Godspeed might have entirely different reasoning behind his POV, or he might just say 'see Michael's post.' Which would be fine. iIts easy really. And nothing circular about it, afaik.
M. Tesla
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You're over-thinking this...
While the amount of water has remained static, the amount of Tequila and Triple Sec available for making Margaritas has expanded enormously. So you see, we have made progress after all. ~Anonymous
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jun 5, 2016, M. Tessler wrote:
You're over-thinking this...


Yea par for the course.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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