On May 30, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
Sleepymentalism-

Your question doesn't anger me in the least, but it is more than a bit frustrating.

By your own admission just a few months ago, you are pretty much a beginner when it comes to learning mentalism. The question you ask here has been discussed to death, and probably beyond, on this forum since its creation. You, yourself, asked it just a few months ago.

There are very fundamental and sound reasons why mentalists never mix the two unless they are already well-known as mentalists. And even they will rarely use more than a single brief magic trick. And when a magician tries to do mentalism in his magic act it will simply be perceived as another magic trick. (The fact that many magicians in recent years have started to do this is one of the basic causes of the "trivialization" that you've probably seen discussed at length in other thread.)

I'm certainly not going to write extensively on the topic here, because I've already written thousands of words about it in the Café over the years. I'm sure that this isn't the first time you've heard this, but here it is again- use the search function.

On May 31, 2016, SolidSnake wrote:
I'm sure I read a mentalist manuscript once that had card through window as an effect.

On Jun 1, 2016, David Thiel wrote:
Here's why: The vast majority of people who have a true gut level understanding of the difference between mentalism and magic are the people who have actually performed MENTALISM. I'm not talking about the watered down version of "mental magic." And I'm not even talking about a "mentalism themed act." I am talking about literal, actual mentalism...performed within the context of a mentalism performance.

It is like trying to explain the color red to someone who has been congenitally blind...or what a peach really tastes like to someone who has no ability to taste.

You either GET the difference...or you don't.

Wheels on the bus...

David

On May 31, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
The famous mentalists who have done so were already firmly established as mentalists. That's the inconvenient fact that magicians who think the art forms can be indiscriminately mixed.

And I'd like to see JUST ONE example of my ever denigrating magicians. I've always loved magic.

I do see a lot of snide mentalist bashing here, though.

On Jun 1, 2016, MagicalEducator wrote:

Quote:

On May 31, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
The famous mentalists who have done so were already firmly established as mentalists. That's the inconvenient fact that magicians who think the art forms can be indiscriminately mixed.

And I'd like to see JUST ONE example of my ever denigrating magicians. I've always loved magic.

I do see a lot of snide mentalist bashing here, though.

If they were firmly established as mentalists then the so called magic portion of their program would be inconsistent with their character. Perhaps instead there wasn't a real distinction between the two except a theoretical framework that's been added more recently. Maybe the armchair theorists are actually the so called mentalism purists that don't better know better than everyone else. Perhaps the rules they try to enforce aren't really rules as all. All of us play the character of a mystery performer which in itself has many manifestations. I can be a magician, a mentalist, or? In all cases I'm simply playing a theatrical role. It's all make believe and in that world the performer can create whatever reality they choose. These are called artistic choices. Dunninger made them, Derren Brown makes them and so do all other performers. Tired of people spouting off subjective be realities as gospel.

Jeff

On Jun 1, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
Educator-Where did you get the ridiculous idea that I'm an armchair theorist? Project much?

On Jun 1, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
Educator-

Where did you get the ridiculous idea that I'm an armchair theorist? Project much?

And where is the example I requested of me EVER denigrating magic or magicians?

On Jun 2, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
What "Dunninger Man of Mystery" comments? I don't recall ever referring to him that way. I'm not saying I haven't, but I really don't recall that. But I've often observed that mentalism and magic are both forms of entertainment, neither of which is inherently more entertaining, or "better" than the other.They are just fundamentally different.

But I agree with you about on-line communication. I've frequently said that there really are no rules in mentalism, or in any art for that matter, that cannot be broken. But it's really important to understand the reasoning behind them before breaking them.

Bob

On Jun 2, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
All I ever really said about Dunninger was to quote his famous remark, "Each time I add a prop my price goes down," which was said in the context of a discussion about the differences between mentalism and mental magic.

I fail to see how that is critical of magic or magicians in any way at all.

I went into a good bit of detail about my thoughts on magic and mentalism in my Guest of Honor week here in 2011.

This thread is a good example, although others touch on it as well:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......orum=304

Bob

On Jun 2, 2016, M. Tessler wrote:
I hope this explains what I see as the difference between a magician and a mentalist...over a thirty year span I did kiddie magic shows/restaurant magic/walk around/stage, etc., yet I always wanted to transition, and become a mentalist, but I never got around to it (tuit)...heh...so, I'm now out of magic and have been for about 10 years, and I decided to put an act together...I hope I can have it ready to go in about 6 months (and it could take longer), to do it right...you can't just rush out and throw a few "mental effects" together and call yourself a mentalist...the right mental effects need to be selected to project yourself as someone with psychic abilities...after selection, they need to be practiced, a script needs to be written, and marketing must be done, etc...

IMHO, a magician performs a "magic show"...he does "magic tricks" to amuse an audience...a mentalist provides a demonstration of extra sensory perception (ESP), also called sixth sense, psychic abilities...the demonstrations will fall into several categories: telepathy, clairaudience, clairvoyance, precognition, etc...if you need definitions of what those mean, please let me know, and I'll provide them...being known as a magician and mixing magic and ESP together, would be the death knell of an act as a mentalist...all the audience needs to do is think "how did he fool me with that trick?" and you've failed as a mentalist...your "act" (don't forget Robert-Houdin's famous quote about acting) must be clearly NOT magic...there has to be a line between the two...now, I may do a few "magic tricks," occasionally, but only for relatives and friends...and, I won't be using my own name even though it hasn't been used in a decade, as a magician...I still want to get away from any remembrance of me as a magician thus, a stage name, and one that I hope will become somewhat known, at least locally...I don't specifically need "fame and fortune," as I'm just looking for a few gigs here and there to earn a bit more income (social security is a b*tch, to get myself out of the house (my mobility problem is giving me cabin fever), and the greatest focus will be on entertaining others...there's something that is calling me to do this, I only wish I'd done it earlier...I hope to carry nothing but a briefcase, and a very small sound system (I have several: small, medium, and large) as I'm also limited in what I can lift...but the urge to entertain tops everything...so, there's my two cents about the difference between a magician and a mentalist...if I'm wrong, please correct me...