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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Can you be a magician and mentalist?? (127 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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M. Tesla
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As far as the public is concerned, yes...but we know how most of these effects are done, otherwise this thread would be unnecessary...don't you think after all these posts regarding this subject, that that's a rather silly question?
While the amount of water has remained static, the amount of Tequila and Triple Sec available for making Margaritas has expanded enormously. So you see, we have made progress after all. ~Anonymous
Alexxander
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It is, yes.

I think we should really just move on and accept that he won't understand it...
XyGreg
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A few months ago, I did magic tricks to a few spectators, and later in the day I did mentalism effects to the same spectators. They themselves perceived the mentalism as "different", they said "the magic was really cool but when you went into my head it was... Woaaaw!". So I think all is in the presentation, personnaly I like magic and mentalism so I can't "eliminate" one, so I think about how to handle that In the best way, it's all about personal preference and about how you want to be perceived. In the example I mention here, I think the spectator m thinke "well, he's a magician but also more than that, he literally went into my head!"
mastermindreader
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Did you consider that the mentalism and magic were separated by several hours and what effect that might have had?
Mindpro
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Also as any longtime experienced performer knows, you can't go by what audience members, (especially friends) tell you. Often they tell you what they think you want to hear, and more so they won't always tell you anything they think negatively. So most performers tend to only hear the favorable or positive skews. Just like only few people will complain at a restaurant after a bad experience, food or service. The MAJORITY do not, but will leave and never return and yet may tell others of their true dissatisfied feelings.

This is even more greatly magnified if it is someone you know (family, friends, co-workers, etc.)
XyGreg
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Quote:
On Jun 3, 2016, mastermindreader wrote:
Did you consider that the mentalism and magic were separated by several hours and what effect that might have had?


Yes indeed Smile All I mean is that if you like magic and mentalism you can find ways to handle this cleverly without having to drop one of them Smile
Ed_Millis
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I enjoyed reading these words from Mr. Cassidy:
Quote:
Mentalism and mental magic, then, are different forms of entertainment. Both elicit different
perceptions and reactions from an audience. The mentalist, therefore, has an ethical responsibility
unknown to the conjuror or mental magician, for he is in a position to make people believe in, and rely
upon, to their detriment, his alleged powers.
...
It is very important that you believe in your abilities while you are on stage, as we will see.

As I perform my current shows, it is nearly impossible for me to believe in and project any kind of "alleged powers". I am so fully aware that I am doing "tricks", no matter how "mental" they are. Therefore, I classify myself as a magician, not any flavor of mentalist. Nor do I think I will be brave enough to take on that title until I can (at least on stage) believe in my abilities enough to lose the rest of what I must do.

Ed
MagicalEducator
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"The mentalist has an ethical responsibility to make people believe he has special powers." One might state quite the opposite in fact. That is that the "mentalist" (performer/actor playing a role) has an ethical responsibility to not perpetuate more mistaken belief in the paranormal. Like when the mentalist Gerry McCambridge ends his show by using the acronym MAGIC to explain that what the audience has just seen is a trick. One would hope that people would use common sense and realize that the show is in a theatre so it must be not real. Sadly they don't.

Jeff
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mastermindreader
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Why the misquote? Who exactly are you quoting, or else why the quotation marks?

What I wrote is, in fact, the exact opposite of your misquote.

What I wrote, which Ed cited correctly, is

Quote:
The mentalist, therefore, has an ethical responsibility unknown to the conjuror or mental magician, for he is in a position to make people believe in, and rely upon, to their detriment, his alleged powers.


NOWHERE does that say a mentalist has a responsibility to make people believe he has special powers.

So, since you made up the quote, you're arguing against a straw man.

Don't misquote me and that won't happen.
Joe Atmore
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Quote:
On Jun 1, 2016, MagicalEducator wrote:


If they were firmly established as mentalists then the so called magic portion of their program would be inconsistent with their character.



Not at all if you are referring to Dunninger (which folks who have not truly studied the history of mentalism love to tread out for this argument over and over again). I don't expect anyone to have studied his work and impact on the art as much as me (well maybe Bob!), but your position on this is flawed.
Best Thoughts,

Joe Atmore
International Artists Consultant Uri Geller's Phenomenon TV Series;
PEA Bob Haines Memorial Award;
Dunninger Show Recreation;
Author of Dunninger Knows and Dunninger's Brain Busters

JosephAtmore.com
MagicalEducator
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Bob,

My apologies but I misread the quote. Wasn't trying to misrepresent your thoughts just a simple oversight. Not much point in creating a straw man argument when you agree with the person.

Joe,

I'm not sure that you can make claims that I "...haven't truly studied mentalism" since you don't actually know my background. Perhaps it could be that we disagree on this point but that doesn't necessarily make it flawed. If one does magic in a mentalism set then one is a magician or mental magic practicioner. This is something that's trumpeted by Bob and many others here in Penny. How do you go back and then say... well that doesn't really apply to Dunninger? There's no logic in that whatsoever. If he performs the linking rings for fun then tries to perform mentalism then one could argue that he has broken the mentalism spell he's about to cast. I'd be very interested in hearing what makes this argument flawed. In fact, my argument is completely valid. You question my premise but that doesn't make the argument flawed. The truth of my premise is a matter of subjective opinion. The argument form follows - If one does magic and mentalism in a show then one isn't a mentalist. Dunninger performed magic and mentalism. Therefore Dunninger isn't a mentalist. Seems a bit of an inconvient truth that doesn't fit the pure mentalist viewpoint. Would love to hear your thoughts on this point and not a personal attack that people who suggest otherwise just don't know any better. This doesn't move the argument forward or enlighten anyone. We often hear it is what it is and if you knew better then you'd understand. This is a cop out. It also comes across to some as rather self serving. The argument to the contrary should stand on it's own merit. Yes it does matter who says it but that doesn't dispute the fact that rather subjective arguments are still judged based on their merits and not who says them. I only ask the question so I'll thank people in advance for not calling me a troll or a flamer.

jeff
Voted "Canada's Most Inspirational Magician"
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Slim King
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If you don't agree. They certainly will call you names. Even beyond that the logic and reasoning are gone. They can never answer this question. What if the magicians magic was more believable than the mentalists performance? What if the magician had an effect far superior to theirs...... Then the mentalist routine is hurting the magicians presentation.
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
mastermindreader
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Even though Slim remains oblivious to it, the point has been made repeatedly. With his number one rated show on the NBC Blue network, Dunninger was the most famous mind reader in the United States, and well-established as "The Master Mentalist" long before he added a single magic effect to his act.

Guys who aren't established or known at all aren't in the same category.

And I'm still waiting for a quote of mine that shows me EVER disparaging magic or magicians.

Not holding my breath, though.
Decomposed
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Quote:
On Jun 4, 2016, MagicalEducator wrote:
"The mentalist has an ethical responsibility to make people believe he has special powers." One might state quite the opposite in fact. That is that the "mentalist" (performer/actor playing a role) has an ethical responsibility to not perpetuate more mistaken belief in the paranormal. Like when the mentalist Gerry McCambridge ends his show by using the acronym MAGIC to explain that what the audience has just seen is a trick. One would hope that people would use common sense and realize that the show is in a theatre so it must be not real. Sadly they don't.

Jeff



Is Gerry ending his current show like that now? I have not seen him in years in Vegas but don't remember the ending like that. I do however remember his sign out front stating he was a magician and mentalist. So many coming to Vegas don't know what a mentalist is so I get it that marketing part.
Magiconcio
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Guys, stop that. Obviously using a mind-reading trick makes me a mentalist. Just like how anyone that knows a key-card trick is a magician. That's how it works, right? I mean, what does this Bob Cassidy guy know at all, right? Putting the sarcasm aside, I have the utmost respect for your valuable opinions Mr. Cassidy.

Anyway, I have absolutely zero professional experience as either a magician or mentalist, but...

As I understand it the main difference between both isn't about the "theme" magicians and mentalists use. The main difference lies in the acting involved. While a magician will focus on amazing and entertaining by fooling the audience a mentalism goes to a greater lenght of being "believable". A magicians performing style is more tongue-in-cheek while a mentalist is more serious. Mentalists are way more acting-oriented.

That being said, a magician can try to act more "mentalist-like" without adding any mental effect at all to his performance by just trying to act more serious, fair and open. If you act slowly and deliberately and "build up" the effect then you'll be closer to a mentalism than performing the 21 card trick could. The 21 card trick, by the way, is an example of mental-themed card effect that won't put you in the category of a mentalist.

I hope what I'm saying isn't utterly bulls***.
Slim King
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Doing a card trick and saying it's a super memory experiment is just funny to me. I don't buy it. But many think it's mentalism by their definition and it puts them above the believability of magicianship..... I don't see it like that anymore..... I see the possibility of magic being so good that it's more believable than mentalism. I'm not talking about sponge bunny magic .... I'm talking about Magic and all of it's various dimensions.
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
M. Tesla
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Regardless of whether you believe in a difference between a magician, a mentalist, or those that practice bizarre magick, or not, it's still just acting, with slightly different props, and a somewhat different twist to your performance...you are still ACTING to entertain your spectators...IMHO, I think we sometimes forget what our art is all about...the ultimate goal is to entertain the audience...none of us really make flowers appear out of thin air (we use a prop), use the skull and trinkets of the bizarre performer (they're still props), or read minds (using props), unless of course we're really psychic (which I am Smile)...
While the amount of water has remained static, the amount of Tequila and Triple Sec available for making Margaritas has expanded enormously. So you see, we have made progress after all. ~Anonymous
IAIN
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I think doing mathematical based tricks whilst thinking you're the bee's knees just shows what happens when stupidity meets ego...
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Decomposed
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Quote:
On Jun 5, 2016, Slim King wrote:
Doing a card trick and saying it's a super memory experiment is just funny to me. I don't buy it. But many think it's mentalism by their definition and it puts them above the believability of magicianship..... I don't see it like that anymore..... I see the possibility of magic being so good that it's more believable than mentalism. I'm not talking about sponge bunny magic .... I'm talking about Magic and all of it's various dimensions.


I don't know slim. Seeing great stage illusions most I would think see the opposite, its just a trick. Or a card to across the room. Maybe children believe it more? Will give this some thought. You brought up some good issues though.

Smile
Howie Diddot
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Quote:
On Jun 4, 2016, MagicalEducator wrote:


Joe,

I'm not sure that you can make claims that I "...haven't truly studied mentalism" since you don't actually know my background.

jeff


Magical Educator, who are you?

My question to my fellow magician’s on the Café is, does anyone know who Magical Educator is?

Lots of members on the Café have no identifying information and are anonymous, but they are not making judgements and posting comments on expertise as you do.

I do not post in this forum, I read and learn, when mastermindreader posts a comment. or shares advice, I read it very carefully and learn from him; I know who he is and I take his post very seriously.

You have posted that "I'm not sure that you can make claims that I ...haven't truly studied mentalism since you don't actually know my background".

Perhaps you might post a video of your performance so we all might see an example of your work. You might also consider posting some of your achievements and credentials so that we might be better able to critique a fellow performer.

Magical Educator, the random and subjective comments that you have posted on the Café don't really mean very much and I am looking forward to seeing your work.
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