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Cincy_Mojo New user Cincinnati, OH 61 Posts |
Hi all!
So I've been trying out a four coins across routine, and I've noticed a pattern in the reaction of my spectators. Instead of experiencing what we might call a "moment of magic," the response feels like it's more been one of skepticism. By the end if the routine, where the last coin has appeared in the spectators hand, they are usually in a silence that's less stunned and more perplexed. They admit they don't know how I got the coins into my other hand and usually compliment me on the routine, but they haven't really been "popping" the way they do after, say, a color change or a vanish. Obviously the problem comes down to me and my presentation of the effect (which, ps, if you have any pointers for me I'd be really grateful), but it got me thinking about a few things. (1) I've never been crazy about coins across routines, and my reaction to them even before I was a magician was not of "magic" persay, but a demonstration of sleight of hand. I'm wondering if this probably has a lot to do with the reactions I'm getting. Maybe I'm projecting my own skepticism about the "magicality" (is this a word?) of the effect. (2) I'd like to make my routine feel more like magic and less like clever hands, but I'm getting caught up on what the magical motivation or premise for coins across would be. The way it feels now, the premise is more like "coins get from left hand to right hand without the spectator seeing." This to me just doesn't feel like a magical premise. Moreover it feels confrontational, and I try to be careful about not making it seem like I'm challenging my audience or trying be more clever than they are. (3) Lastly, I do an ungimmicked coins across routine. But the ones I've seen that do seem to feel more like magic to me are almost invariably gimmicked. This makes me want to switch over to a gimmick, obviously, but it also got me thinking about why I felt this way. Here's what I came up with. Using a gimmick like a s***l allows you to get ahead of the audience in a way that is cleaner and more impossible-seeming than seems possible without a gimmick. There are similar advantages to routines that use extra coins. But an ungimmicked four CA routine with only four coins requires a certain kind of handling that by it's very nature cannot completely convince the audience that the coins are where you say they are. Hands have to come too close together at awkward times, coins must be dropped without the dropping hand being shown empty afterwards, etc. Of course, these are all just thoughts. But I'd be interested to hear your responses and your own thoughts on what makes coins across magical. Thanks! |
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warren Inner circle uk 4138 Posts |
Hey Cincy, I'm the opposite I love coins across I think it's very magical. my preference is that 3 is the magic number so my coins across routines only have 3 phases although a little shorter I think it plays better.
I use a few different versions of the effect and none require a gimmick one example being Sankey's Mr Clean Coins Across and believe me if done well this kills in the real world. On the whole I see the key points with a gimmick you tend to see for example 4 coins in the hand then suddenly there are only 3 but you didn't get to see the empty hand first the majority of the time where as with ungimmicked you don't get to see how many coins are in the hand supposedly containing the coins but you see the receiving hand empty before a coin arrives the majority of the time. I think its a case of choosing the right routine/method for the situation when building routines its always good if you can cancel out methods even if those methods are in fact being used as once again this strengthens the routine and can make it more magical. |
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Cincy_Mojo New user Cincinnati, OH 61 Posts |
Hi Warren. Thanks for your response. What, in your opinion, elevates coins across above a mere puzzle to become magic? As I said above, part of my trouble is I'm finding difficult to conceive how the premise ofvthe effect is magical rather than just a "look at me" demonstration of sleight of hand.
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bigfoot Special user 502 Posts |
I could offer a few ideas on this topic. Though I am not the ultimate expert in the world I have done a coins across a time or two
First; do you you believe it is magic? That is not as absurd as it sounds if you are not conveying the body language of wonder then it may Be harder for your spectator to believe. Looking in the direction you want your spectator to look is not enough you must also look at it in a way that causes emotion. Video tape yourself and see if you come off as a magician or a huckster that just does "tricks". I say that not knowing or implying anything just mentioning it for examples sake. If you look like a guy who just does tricks it will be hard to break out of that "puzzles" class. You must appear "magical" to make magic or inspire aww. I think it's best said (allow me to paraphrase) with those wise words "you must walk the walk if your going to talk the talk!" _ |
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Mb217 Inner circle 9520 Posts |
Hiya Mo…Welcome to the Café.
I agree with warren somewhat here…I love the Coins Across genre and have played with it in several effects, including a couple of my own. I also agree that 3 coins can play just as well if not better than the use of 4 coins. 4 coins can be a bit monotonous at times, IMHO. With just 3 coins, I think what helps to make it more magical is YOU…I think you gotta build the crossings up a bit more than just a coin going across…If that makes any sense. I have an effect, KrazyKoinZ Across and what makes it different is that the coins go across in unconventional ways. There's a cleverness to it (though all good magic is clever), but the reality that is seen also amazes people, if you take the time to pull them in that way, and I do. As to a gaffed presentation, well I think Roth's Clean Coins Across is hard to beat using a [ …It is very magical and almost impossible looking though it's done so fair and clean. Anyway, I'm sure you'll get a lot of comments on this topic. And again, "Welcome."
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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fonda57 Inner circle chicago 3078 Posts |
You said you have never been crazy about coins across. That may show in your performances. Think about what's happening, coins are vanishing from one place a re-appearing in another. Develop a presentation that emphasizes all this, how magical it really is.
Watch Pop Hadyn on youtube at the magic castle, he does a coins across and gets gasps from the people. I agree with MB about the David Roth one. Just have fun |
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Cincy_Mojo New user Cincinnati, OH 61 Posts |
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On Jun 1, 2016, bigfoot wrote: That doesn't sound absurd, it sounds exactly right. As I mentioned above, I'm worried my body language might partly be conveying that I'm "phoning in" the "magic" aspect of the routine. With all due respect, I'm a magician and I come off that way in performance. I'm just struggling to figure out a presentation I'm comfortable with that adequately expresses what is magical about this particular effect. This is one of the few effects I perform that I think my body language is totally at odds with the concept, and I think the main reason is that I haven't identified and gotten comfortable with what makes it magical. Thanks for the advice, though, I think you're exactly right and I agree completely. Quote:
On Jun 1, 2016, Mb217 wrote: Totally agree about 3 vs 4 coin routines. I do Eric Jones' ungaffed four coins across routine only because I feel like the last coin into the spectator's closed fist is different enough from the previous phases that it almost constitutes a separate effect, almost like a kicker. But more importantly...YES, I think you hit the nail right on the head here. The "magic" is in the crossing...the coin disappears from one hand and appears in the other, and the implication I think I'm giving my audience is that the crossing is happening by sleight of hand. Of course it IS, but I have to really sell the idea that the coin hasn't been secretly transferred but instead vanished, traveled invisibly through time and space, and reconstituted in the opposite hand. Taken with my above comments, I think the essence of my problem is I don't know how to emphasize the magic in the crossing without feeling like I'm just trying to bull**** my specs. What it feels like when I try to do that is that they can see it for what it is...feeble acting in an attempt to hide the real method. As bigfoot said above, I'm not believing it myself. But I'm finding it much more difficult to that here than with most other effects I perform and I'm not sure why. Maybe its because I haven't yet found a "magical crossing" that I'm comfortable with (e.g. throwing the coin invisibly through the air, having the coin shoot up my arm and across my chest, etc.). I typically "throw the coin invisibly through the air" as Eric Jones teaches, but (especially on the first coin in the routine) it just feels like they know, and that I know they know, that the coin was in the right hand all along. Sorry for the long reply. I really appreciate your response and would be very interested to check out your KrazyKoinz routine, especially given your description one of the major selling points seem to be an emphasis on the magic of the crossing. Thanks! |
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J-Mac Inner circle Ridley Park, PA 5338 Posts |
Coins Across - are you talking more like a 3-Fly routine? Or a more measured CA not necessarily at the fingertips?
I have mixed feelings on Coins Across routines. They can be very suspenseful and magical, and yet they can also be very boring! Face it, you're basically doing the same thing three or four times in a row. Doesn’t really matter if you change the method of travel each time; method should be (and actually better be!) invisible to your spectators. And varying the effect oftentimes still shows virtually the same effect over and over. Additionally most Coins Across routines lack a climax. There's no kicker at the end - you just do the same thing with the last coin and put them away. It really takes a great presentation, a gifted story-telling, to perform a CA routine that satisfies most of the audience, in my opinion. So look for good story lines, and be creative. The technical skills you already have - or should have - anyway. It's what you do to grab their attention and keep it that will make it successful. Thanks! Jim |
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warren Inner circle uk 4138 Posts |
Just to add to what others have said if you enjoy the routine and believe it to be magic then that should pass over to the spectators, also when doing the last phase into a spectators hands it can still be done using just 3 coins or if you would rather have the extra cover it can still be done in 3 phases ie just use a 4th coin of a different colour to attract the other coins or us 6 coins but still have 3 phases and as Marion wisely said each phase should build on the next.
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
In my experience, Transportation Effects are accepted as "more magical" that most other magic effects a performer can offer.
However, the repeat sequences can easily shift from astonishment to skill demo. The ket is framing as well as presentation . Some effects like those done by Mb are quick and impactful -- suitable for a "single effect" presentation." Other, slower presentations, should follow another effect to build expectation of the audience that magic is about to occur. The, ideally, the Coins Across is followed by another effect of a different theme. Thus, the objective is to have the entire routine leave a memory of "must be magic," and not just as single effect. I would leave out all flourishes. but, the slower pace lends these affects to a good story line (thanks j-mac) with the performer using a different sleight for any repeat performance, especially when someone asks for the effect. Mixing gaff and no gaff can help. Also, what seems "more magical" to magicians does not always appear as more astonishing to a lay audience. Methinks, for example, that many of the variations of 3Fly do not always have the impact desired for by the performer. Being "more magical/Virtual Magic" doesn't always mean "more entertaining." Always ask, "what will be the story told after?"
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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DaveGripenwaldt Elite user 487 Posts |
Great question and great input on a topic worthy of conversation because CA has some built in flaws from a theatrical perspective - ones that have theatrical solutions.
For what it's worth, my thoughts in no particular order are... Flaws: In one of his lectures, Jules Lenier described the inherent problem with CA this way: He said the first coin is a surprise...the second coin confirms what they just saw...and the third coin shows you can do it as much as you want without them catching you...and the so does the fourth coin...and so does the fifth...there is no built in ending. Add to that your observation about a "Moment of magic" being absent and lack of a premise you have the reasons CA routines can fall flat. So you have to add those elements. Moment of magic: This has to be imported into most any routine, so you ask "when does the magic happen? And how do they know?". In in the case of CA you have a nice way to focus the moment....dramatically waiting for the clink of an arriving coin. Premise: Vernon used to say magicians need to do the sort of things you'd do if you really could do magic, which is not a bad way to hook peoples interest. That idea, however, makes the reason you are doing CA a bit tougher to justify. There isn't a particularly real world reason you'd make coins fly from hand to hand. Grabbing money out of thin air, sure....but hand to hand? What's going on? In that case, perfectly acceptable theatrical solution is the coins standing in for something that is within people's normal experience. So the routine is an example of making a money deposit/transfer without an atm...a way to tip a server that freaks them out...objects demonstrating a force/attraction that is scientific/paranormal in nature. Another very forgiving option is putting the performance in a historical perspective..."this is the first trick I learned"..."this is a classic routine by a 17th century conjurer named X". Basic theatrical principles: The effect of CA flat-lines without imported help, so a routine has to build. Another good reason to limit the number of coins to 3 is that "the rule of 3s" in drama has worked for centuries in plot construction. The simplest and most common form of this in a CA effect is each coin adds an element of difficulty, which tends to have the effect build; each time conditions seem more fair - seemingly harder to do than the last. A simplistic, bare bones example is the first coin goes from the left to right....the next goes from left to the right after the spectator covers your right with both his hands so "nothing can get in"...and the third flies to their hand. I want to congratulate you, btw, about wrestling with this. Too many magicians don't bother and just end up with that "look what I can do for now discernible reason" presentation. This is the first step for ending up with a great routine. Good job! |
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ZachDavenport Inner circle Last time I posted I had one less than 1196 Posts |
I use a 3 coins accross with the presentation of:"I've been working on a method of teleportation because it would make my life easier, but so far I can only teleportation little things like these coins." This is good because people always think about how great teleportation would be, and this hooks them. Then the first one travels and I say that I did it too fast. I don't want them to think this is some sort of trick, this is science. Then I do it slower. Then I say that they still might be skeptical, so I'll do it in their hand. This is of course all tounge in cheek. They know it's fake, but they temporarily go along with it and enjoy the ride.
Reality is a real killjoy.
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Mb217 Inner circle 9520 Posts |
Quote:
On Jun 3, 2016, ZachDavenport wrote: Great way to get into it. And Dave, some good stuff to think about there. *Oh, and Mo…You can find the work on my "KrazyKoinZ Across" in my Short Pockets download here... www.vinnymarini.com/download/shortpockets.html
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic
"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb |
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vinsmagic Eternal Order sleeping with the fishes... 10957 Posts |
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bigfoot Special user 502 Posts |
Okay now I have a question for you Vinny, in the spirit of the topic, do you think people see that as more of a puzzle or more magical?
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J-Mac Inner circle Ridley Park, PA 5338 Posts |
I thought Vinny's video was very good. I didn't see it as any more of a puzzle than many, if not most, Coins Across routines I see. Sure, it was a bit of a guessing game for whatever spectators might be watching it. Then again there are a lot of routines where the performer looks at one hand and seems a little baffled at what he sees there and then acts shocked when the coin mysteriously appears at the fingertips of the other hand. I didn't see Vinny's performance as being any more challenging of the audience to guess where the coin were than many of the CA routines released in recent years.
Sounds like you're seeing something different, bigfoot. Do tell! Thanks! Jim |
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Michael Rubinstein V.I.P. 4665 Posts |
All coin and card tricks as well can be considered nothing more than puzzles. What makes a trick more magical is the wonderment a spectator feels when viewing such a trick. And the SECRET to that is making it so entertaining that the spectator forgets you are just doing a trick. And that's it. The problem is, today most magicians want to perform with the most difficult technique they can learn, and focus on this over the entertainment. That shows in their magic. So make the focus the presentation, using the most magical way, not the most difficult way, to get it done.
S.E.M. (The Sun, the Moon, and the Earth) is a sun and moon routine unlike any other. Limited to 100 sets, here is the promo:
https://youtu.be/aFuAWCNEuOI?si=ZdDUNV8lUPWvtOcL $325 ppd USA (Shipping extra outside of USA). If interested, shoot me an email for ordering information at rubinsteindvm@aol.com |
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Andy Young Special user Jersey Shore, PA 813 Posts |
I am going to be blunt. If you don't like the effect that much and can't get excited about it then move on. Go to another effect that fits you.
In the end you are pushing and that will always show |
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Dick Oslund Inner circle 8357 Posts |
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On Jun 5, 2016, Michael Rubinstein wrote: Mojo...Consider yourself extremely fortunate! You have received some EXCELLENT MENTORING FROM SOME EMINENTLY QUALIFIED MENTORS! Michael Rubinstein's comment >>> S U M S I T U P! <<< >>>KIS MIF<<<!!!!! >>>MAGIC IS N O T I N H E R E N T Y ENTERTAINING<<< P R E S E N T A T I O N !!!!!!! >>>>>It aint WHAT ya do, it's HOW ya do it>>>>>
SNEAKY, UNDERHANDED, DEVIOUS,& SURREPTITIOUS ITINERANT MOUNTEBANK
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9982 Posts |
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On Jun 5, 2016, Michael Rubinstein wrote: I greatly appreciate this phrase as a focus of what "entertainment" means to a magician, or any person desiring to offer a different perspective on perceived reality. It also means getting the observer to "forget" that you are only 12 years old, or that your hands shake, or that they have seen the effect before, or the color of your face or quaintness of speech. I prefer to think that they do not "forget" but replace the restrictive thought with a better one based on joy, hope and awe -- but, I am just a silly old man. Methinks we get too entangled with "entertainment" having to do with helping an observer escape from a miserable/boring existence rather that a join venture to take them where they wish to be. "to entertain a new idea" is just as valid as " a diversion from work." But, either way, when the story told after is about the magic and not the performer or prop -- all is well.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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