We Remember The Magic Café We Remember
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Video for retention vanish (39 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5~6~7~8 [Next]
countrymaven
View Profile
Inner circle
1378 Posts

Profile of countrymaven
Yes Al,
We all owe a lot of gratitude to you for your contributions to coin magic.
thanks so much.
Mb217
View Profile
Inner circle
8883 Posts

Profile of Mb217
Quote:
On Jul 28, 2016, Ado wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 28, 2016, Hare wrote:
Coin magician's tend to talk about "The Retention Vanish" as if it were a very specific, exacting move, which incorporates a certain way of holding a coin in the fingertips and moving it to a specific hidden hold.

Isn't the "flash" of the coin [...] what differentiates this effect or move or passé, from other such passes?

It's not just the flash. It's the flash in the put with the other hand closing. There are other moves with a flash that are quite different. For example, Gary Ouellet had a a great retention of vision in his French drop. But it's a completely different move, with a different impact, and a different use, you might say. That being said, the RoV vanish can be used without the flash, just as a way to conceal a coin that we didn't put, such as when Mickey Silver puts a coin under a card. In that case, there's no RoV, just a good fake put. In all cases, the tecnhical discussions are about the execution of the move, so that your fingers tell as little as possible, I'd say.

P!


I have always thought that there was a bit too much put to all this, since the move when done right happens in a second behind greater movement. It flies right over people's heads and the burn insures it. So, all the technical discussion about a little finger movement etc., I have found is much ado (no pun intended) Smile about nothing much. Smile In the greater scheme of building a house it is but a nail as to holding it all together.

I can remember an initial discussion many years back of all this behind the effect "Silver Dream" (which I love)... Justin Miller spoke of his great effort not to have his fingers move as he exacted the ROV - He absolutely hated the extension of the fingers during the move. Then people began (or perhaps began yet again) to strive for more minimal or no finger movement at all. Eventually, I came to better understand that all that was of little consequence in the greater scheme of things, as the bigger part of it happens in the spec's mind anyway. So, magicians were worrying about this way more than the specs, who honestly don't have a clue beyond where they believe they last saw the coin as per the burn of the image in their mind...So, the little of anything movement mixed within the greater action registers smally if at all. About the significance of a misspelled word that you don't really know the correct spelling of, or something like that. Smile

So, while it's always an interesting discussion about all this, and it's nice to keep reaching for perfection on things, but the simplistic way this move is taught in Bobo's is as good a way to do this now as was then. Smile
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic Smile


"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb Smile
Michael Rubinstein
View Profile
V.I.P.
4186 Posts

Profile of Michael Rubinstein
Here is a little secret. It's not the pass that's important. It's what you do after the pass that's important.
AT LAST - a NEW fun coins across!! MIGRATE is filled with laughs, magic, cool moves, lasts over 3 minutes, uses props, comes in a Poker Chip version or special Deluxe version with coins, and is about...BEARS! AT DEALERS EVERYWHERE!
https://youtu.be/hzf-Trbs4Ts

https://youtu.be/gGjMtW1DLjA

ALSO...available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
I HAVE A LIMITED AMOUNT OF COPIES AVAILABLE TO BE SIGNED, AND COME WITH A SPECIAL FREE GIFT! If interested, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com I also have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book, let me know if you want a pricelist.
Al Schneider
View Profile
V.I.P.
A corn field in WI surrounded by
1080 Posts

Profile of Al Schneider
Here is another point of view.
Almost all false transfers are designed to show a coin was transfered to the other hand.
When reconstructing, the audience might observe, "... then he put the coin into the other hand..."
Look, you do not want the audience to remember the coin was transfered.
You want theM to remember or say, "... the coin in his hand DISAPPEARED ..."
How many here show a move to brag about how good some move makes it look like the coin changed hands.
In a sense my video was to mock that issue. Some of those moves could be used without attention being focused on THE MOVE.
I don't mean to slam Micheal here but look at the avatar he displays. The picture shows him about to place the coin in the other hand.
It appears as if he has the transfer on display. I understand the picture is to communicate something to magicians so it is really OK.
However, it does highlight this point of view.

Do you want your audience to say, "Boy it really looked like he put the coin in his other hand."
OR
Do you want your audience to say, "Suddenly the coin wasn't there."

I fear that I have gone over this in this forum for a long time and no one has paid attention.
The move guys keep getting all these accolades.
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
evikshin
View Profile
Special user
895 Posts

Profile of evikshin
Marion: I agree with you...I think in real time, real life performance, finger movement is not important unless it's excessive. The move really should be part of a large routine with a beginning and an end. I would say, however, if you were performing for a camera, where specs have a chance to rewind and rewatch, no finger movement might help hide the technique.

Al: I think what you are trying to get at is not different from what I've heard Jonathan Townsend say for the past 15 years--the focus should be on the vanishing of the coin, not the actual put. I think this naturally occurs if the move is built into a routine with proper motivation. However, I would like your opinion on Mickey Silver--he highlights the actual move, and even has convincers to prove that the coin went into the hand (!!). Why do you think what he does works, despite conflicting with magic theory? I have seen him do a retention vanish as an in-transit, incidental movement (in order to free up a hand to pick something up), but most of the time, he highlights the actual put...there is no external motivation other than "look, I'm putting the coin in my left hand, something amazing is about to happen"

thanks
ZachDavenport
View Profile
Inner circle
Last time I posted I had one less than
1197 Posts

Profile of ZachDavenport
Quote:
On Feb 17, 2017, evikshin wrote:
I would say, however, if you were performing for a camera, where specs have a chance to rewind and rewatch, no finger movement might help hide the technique

If someone is rewinding and deconstructing the trick, they aren't going to think "His finger didn't move, so he couldn't have not put it there." If they are analyzing and they see you put a coin into your hand and then they see that it isn't actually there, they will know the transfer was fake. This is why it is important to keep them from noticing the transfer at all. There not much you can do to stop people if they want to analyse a video.
Reality is a real killjoy.
evikshin
View Profile
Special user
895 Posts

Profile of evikshin
Quote:
On Feb 17, 2017, ZachDavenport wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 17, 2017, evikshin wrote:
I would say, however, if you were performing for a camera, where specs have a chance to rewind and rewatch, no finger movement might help hide the technique

If someone is rewinding and deconstructing the trick, they aren't going to think "His finger didn't move, so he couldn't have not put it there." If they are analyzing and they see you put a coin into your hand and then they see that it isn't actually there, they will know the transfer was fake. This is why it is important to keep them from noticing the transfer at all. There not much you can do to stop people if they want to analyse a video.


Notice I said "hide the technique" not "prevent people from thinking 'false transfer.' " I'm thinking mainly in terms of the mechanics. They may still suspect something if they wish, but at least it wouldn't be too obvious how it was done. Again, some might say that you have already lost if they think "false transfer," regardless of whether or not they see how it happened. And they are probably right. In the grand scheme of things, what I'm saying probably doesn't matter, as most of us perform for real people in real time--not the camera.

I agree that there is not much we can do to stop people from rewinding the video (its a free country, for now).

You stated "it is important to keep them from noticing the transfer at all." Just out of curiousity, do you say this only in the context of our present discussion, or do you believe it to be true most of the time? I definitely think there are times that the transfer should appear as an incidental, in-transit action (Ascanio).
But again, what would you say about people who highlight the actual transfer? Not just Mickey, but I've seen Roth, Vernon, et all do it depending on the routine. The transfer is very "look what I'm doing" in your face.

Thanks
ZachDavenport
View Profile
Inner circle
Last time I posted I had one less than
1197 Posts

Profile of ZachDavenport
No one but a magician would care about the technique for the transfer, so unless you're performing for magicians, it wouldn't matter. I'm speaking in general. There are exceptions to every rule of course. I'd have to see the examples you mean to judge.
Reality is a real killjoy.
Michael Rubinstein
View Profile
V.I.P.
4186 Posts

Profile of Michael Rubinstein
Darn it, I really like that avitar. I look good! Don't know the artist, but he is selling a Penguin coin lecture, not showing a pass. But I stand behind what I said, if you want the people to believe the coin is gone, you need to direct them by doing something to make them understand what has happened to the coin. Look, if you just put a coin in your hand, then open your hand to show a vanish, what are people going to think. They are going to wonder what happened to the coin. If you don't give them direction, the first thing they will do is look at your other hand. So you need to change that focus. How? Depends on why you are vanishing the coin. For example,you can direct them by an action. if you make a coin vanish, then lift up a saltshaker on the table to reveal that the coin is now there, you have made them understand that the coin has vanished from your hand and appeared under the saltshaker. You can also direct them with words. What you say can direct them to follow. There is much more to say about this, but you can get the idea. By the way Al, I got more hair in my avatar than in real life, so the picture stays Smile
AT LAST - a NEW fun coins across!! MIGRATE is filled with laughs, magic, cool moves, lasts over 3 minutes, uses props, comes in a Poker Chip version or special Deluxe version with coins, and is about...BEARS! AT DEALERS EVERYWHERE!
https://youtu.be/hzf-Trbs4Ts

https://youtu.be/gGjMtW1DLjA

ALSO...available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
I HAVE A LIMITED AMOUNT OF COPIES AVAILABLE TO BE SIGNED, AND COME WITH A SPECIAL FREE GIFT! If interested, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com I also have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book, let me know if you want a pricelist.
Al Schneider
View Profile
V.I.P.
A corn field in WI surrounded by
1080 Posts

Profile of Al Schneider
Sorry Micheal, I sense the magic mafia is getting ready for a drive by shooting and I wanted to distance myself from you.
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
Michael Rubinstein
View Profile
V.I.P.
4186 Posts

Profile of Michael Rubinstein
That's why I wear a bullet proof vest. I have a vested interest in it. I got it from my accountant, he looks over my investments. I just won't hang out with Shoot Ogawa. But I am leaving tomorrow to film the At the Table lecture, the shooting is on Monday....
AT LAST - a NEW fun coins across!! MIGRATE is filled with laughs, magic, cool moves, lasts over 3 minutes, uses props, comes in a Poker Chip version or special Deluxe version with coins, and is about...BEARS! AT DEALERS EVERYWHERE!
https://youtu.be/hzf-Trbs4Ts

https://youtu.be/gGjMtW1DLjA

ALSO...available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
I HAVE A LIMITED AMOUNT OF COPIES AVAILABLE TO BE SIGNED, AND COME WITH A SPECIAL FREE GIFT! If interested, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com I also have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book, let me know if you want a pricelist.
Hare
View Profile
Veteran user
319 Posts

Profile of Hare
I agree with the point that Dr. Rubinstein is trying to make, and it is a super important observation.

Here on the Café, we are always focusing on the specifics of techniques, and sometimes, it's easy to lose sight of the big picture.

The actual sleights we use are secondary to the importance to the big picture of controlling the audience's focus away from the tricky business along the route to creating magic. The closer you throw the "climax" of the trick to the "trickery" involved, the more likely you are to let the watcher figure out what happened. The more you isolate the reveal or climax, the more emphasis you can place on the "magic" part that seems to happen at the presumed magical moment; the stronger the effect for the most part.

Most effects we create come down to introducing the props or innocent stuff we are working with, setting the stuff into motion in apparently innocent fashion, and then, *bang*, having the magic come forth.

It's a pretty good rule to try to keep the behind the scenes shenanigans regulated to the middle section of one's trick, and away from the climax of the trick, when the spectator is under the impression that wizardry is happening.

So, when magician's here are critical of a demonstration of a move or sleight that is shown as a "demo for magicians", by watching and rewatching the critical part of a move, I suspect it's quite unfair to start tossing around claims of being able to see through what, (particularly in this thread), are very, very advanced and near-perfect moves.

Sure, they need to be added into the context of a regular "trick"- but that isn't the point of a filmed demo aimed at selling or demonstrating to coin magi, is it?

We need to keep our perspective about us, and remember the Doc's quite sage advice. It's what you do after the passé- the way you isolate the magical reveal with clever use of timing and misdirection and acting, that really sells the effect. The passé itself is just something in your toolbelt that no one gets to really go back and study, in a real performance.
"Better described in The Amateur Magician's Handbook"
Ado
View Profile
Inner circle
New York City
1033 Posts

Profile of Ado
I believe that unless you're doing the move out of sight (say, behind your back or under the table), misdirection (or direction, attention, etc) is no substitute for technique. Finger movement in the RoV can be pretty bad depending on who does it. The number of RoVs I've seen that had no retention and where you could see four fingers straighten to cover the coin before the other hand closed is *** too high.

Whether you reveal the vanish immediately, or whether the RoV vanish was justified as opposed to any other move is another subject that's more general. But if you need a RoV, you might as well strive for the best one for the occasion, and learn to do it well.

P!
funsway
View Profile
Inner circle
old things in new ways - new things in old ways
9125 Posts

Profile of funsway
I find something of value in most posts above, and also things to disagree with. Yes, one should have a variety of fake transfers mastered so as to select the best for the desired effect,
or in case of an unavoidable repeat performance. Yet, Al's view that nay ROV type move unnecessarily draws attention to the wrong hand.
The desired result is in the story told after. You do not wan them to even remember that you ever transferred the coin to the other hand,
or if you did, that it was natural and necessary to the flow of the routine.

I also want to point out the difference between a FAKE transfer and a FALSE. All ROV type moves are FAKE in the sense that the coin is only apparently placed in the receiving hand,
with the placing hand apparently shown empty for inferential support. The 'flash' does not change the FAKE nature, but might make the 'apparently empty' inference more believable.

In contrast. a FALSE transfer can include an actual placement of the coin in the receiving hand and the passing hand shown empty because it is.
The technique is secretly getting the coin out of the "known" hand to some other location. Another type of FALSE transfer is where no coin is actually transferred or retained at all.

Consider AL's Basic Vanish in which the falling coin is "seen" by the spectator even thought it is retained. Instead, there need be no coin at all and the spectator will still see it fall.

For example, here is a sequence from a 1932 manuscript. A coin is dropped form the right fingers into the left hand and given to a spectator to hold. The right hand is empty.

A second coin is dropped into the left hand and the right shown empty. That coin is now dropped back into the right hand "see it fall" and the left hand shown empty.

The coin now vanishes with both hands clean. The performer says, "that's why I keep a spare," retrieves the coin held safe by the spectator and continues.

In the later sequences there is no coin - a pseudo coin. Yet, because the first actual drop conditioned the audience to a pattern of moves,
and a phenomenon called Predictive Vision, they see the coin visibly drop two times even though there is none. The second drop confirms the first
and 'closes the door' on any rewind effort - and the retrieval of the actual coin verifies the original drop.

This requires that each combination of hand, body and eye movements be identical. Read Al's work on training the closed hand to appear to hold a coin.

NOTE: - you can't make a video of this! You can't learn it from a video. It fools the mind and not the eye and requires more practice than many are willing to put in.

just saying (to quote Mb)
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
Danwseers
View Profile
New user
78 Posts

Profile of Danwseers
Quote:
On Jun 13, 2016, Michael Rubinstein wrote:
Frankly, the retention pass used on COIN looks pretty much like Mickey Silver's, which he never published. The performer does it very well. Larry Baronowsky also has a similar vanish which he published in his first book. Speed is used to do the vanish, which allows you to do some of the visual switches you see. But that doesn't make the vanish better, it just allows you other options. Speed doesn't mean better.


I donno, Mickey Silver's when reviewed frame by frame on his "demo" tape reveals significant index finger movement. Chen's seeks to isolate all of the movement to the thumb. While Mickey may never have published his, I was left to conclude Mickey's was nothing other than the standard ROV. Perhaps that is why it was never published? I understand your point, and would subscribe to the utility of the sleight before all else. Meaning, fast is for what purpose, and slow is for, presumably, another.

And, dear god, someone get that eel off of Mickey's chest...honestly, it distracts from an otherwise excellent sleight.
tonsofquestions
View Profile
Special user
982 Posts

Profile of tonsofquestions
Quote:
On Feb 19, 2017, funsway wrote:
In contrast. a FALSE transfer can include an actual placement of the coin in the receiving hand and the passing hand shown empty because it is.
The technique is secretly getting the coin out of the "known" hand to some other location. Another type of FALSE transfer is where no coin is actually transferred or retained at all.


If it includes "an actual placement of the coin in the receiving hand", then how is it a "False transfer"? It sounds like you're actually transferring it. (And then later some kind of steal).

I'd also can't help but think the terms are backwards, a "transfer" with no coin sounds more "fake" (you're miming it) than "false" (not actually doing it), to me.

Either way, I'd wonder if anyone else here draws a similar distinction between false and fake. I'd be curious to hear from any of the other big names.
MICKEY SILVER
View Profile
Elite user
Boston, Ma.
442 Posts

Profile of MICKEY SILVER
Quote:
On Feb 20, 2017, Danwseers wrote:
Quote:
On Jun 13, 2016, Michael Rubinstein wrote:
Frankly, the retention pass used on COIN looks pretty much like Mickey Silver's, which he never published. The performer does it very well. Larry Baronowsky also has a similar vanish which he published in his first book. Speed is used to do the vanish, which allows you to do some of the visual switches you see. But that doesn't make the vanish better, it just allows you other options. Speed doesn't mean better.


I donno, Mickey Silver's when reviewed frame by frame on his "demo" tape reveals significant index finger movement. Chen's seeks to isolate all of the movement to the thumb. While Mickey may never have published his, I was left to conclude Mickey's was nothing other than the standard ROV. Perhaps that is why it was never published? I understand your point, and would subscribe to the utility of the sleight before all else. Meaning, fast is for what purpose, and slow is for, presumably, another.

And, dear god, someone get that eel off of Mickey's chest...honestly, it distracts from an otherwise excellent sleight.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A very weak statement from a person with no knowledge what so ever about coin Magic and Entertaining with it. Very Weak indeed!!!!! But totally understood by professional Magicians Smile
MICKEY SILVER
View Profile
Elite user
Boston, Ma.
442 Posts

Profile of MICKEY SILVER
A THOUGHT FOR ALL IN COIN MAGIC :

..... Flip a coin up in the air, letting the spectators see that coin in the air totally separated from both hands....When that coin lands in your hand perform a retention vanish with in a second of that coin landing....... SEE & HEAR THE RESPONSE Repeat the same retention vanish to different spectators but this time hold the coin with one hand tight with your finger and thumb and never let them see the coin away from both hands before you do the retention vanish.......NOW COMPARE THE RESPONSES

......
Jiceh
View Profile
Special user
France
742 Posts

Profile of Jiceh
Quote:
On Feb 21, 2017, MICKEY SILVER wrote:
A THOUGHT FOR ALL IN COIN MAGIC :

..... Flip a coin up in the air, letting the spectators see that coin in the air totally separated from both hands....When that coin lands in your hand perform a retention vanish with in a second of that coin landing....... SEE & HEAR THE RESPONSE Repeat the same retention vanish to different spectators but this time hold the coin with one hand tight with your finger and thumb and never let them see the coin away from both hands before you do the retention vanish.......NOW COMPARE THE RESPONSES

......

Obviously, It's better with the coin flipping in the air
Jiceh
View Profile
Special user
France
742 Posts

Profile of Jiceh
Quote:
On Jun 24, 2016, vinsmagic wrote:
Early mickey Silver https://youtu.be/ljTCw1K2EnE
and really the coin was never ever in his hand.....

mickey thought this to me over 15 years ago

vinny

So good!
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Video for retention vanish (39 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5~6~7~8 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2021 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.3 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL