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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Video for retention vanish (39 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Danwseers
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Quote:
On Feb 21, 2017, MICKEY SILVER wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 20, 2017, Danwseers wrote:
Quote:
On Jun 13, 2016, Michael Rubinstein wrote:
Frankly, the retention pass used on COIN looks pretty much like Mickey Silver's, which he never published. The performer does it very well. Larry Baronowsky also has a similar vanish which he published in his first book. Speed is used to do the vanish, which allows you to do some of the visual switches you see. But that doesn't make the vanish better, it just allows you other options. Speed doesn't mean better.


I donno, Mickey Silver's when reviewed frame by frame on his "demo" tape reveals significant index finger movement. Chen's seeks to isolate all of the movement to the thumb. While Mickey may never have published his, I was left to conclude Mickey's was nothing other than the standard ROV. Perhaps that is why it was never published? I understand your point, and would subscribe to the utility of the sleight before all else. Meaning, fast is for what purpose, and slow is for, presumably, another.

And, dear god, someone get that eel off of Mickey's chest...honestly, it distracts from an otherwise excellent sleight.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A very weak statement from a person with no knowledge what so ever about coin Magic and Entertaining with it. Very Weak indeed!!!!! But totally understood by professional Magicians Smile


Hello Mickey - I am a little confused by your reply, so at least accept that I mean you no harm. Whether, the speculation on what was observable on your demo tape, or the in-jest comment about the eel. I was only offering an observation that might shed light on the differences/similarities between your technique and Chen's. Both methods look great. Michael was equating Chen's method with yours, and a salient difference is what I pointed out. It doesn't mean his is better, or yours is better for that matter, as it is simply a statement of what is observable.

Regarding the eel comment, I was offering call back humor to a previous post in this same thread by another member who coined the expression. I apologize if you did not find it in good fun.

As for my knowledge on the subject at hand, while I have virtually no posts on this forum, if you read the couple I have you will find my knowledge isn't exactly spring chicken. Nevertheless, I am not approaching this from an adversarial position, so no worries if you don't find anything of value in my thinking; that is okay too. More important is that you are clear that I believe you are obviously very capable in your proficiency. I loved the slot machine. Cheers
Al Schneider
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It seems that not everyone is of the same opinion here. There is a question of who is better than whom. Then does the move look clean. Then a pro says, “I been paying the bills with this for 50 years.” Then there are those that have an ego so strong they cannot see their work. Like those that watch themselves in a mirror and blink when they do the move. Most of the kids here have no clue what the audience sees.

Do a perfect coin vanish. Unless you have built a strong routine around it the audience will say,”Its in the other hand.”

If you hold your hand up apparently empty but naturally cupped, produce a coin, the audience will always believe the coin was hidden the hand. They may applaud the skill in doing that, but they still believe the coin was hidden in the hand.

Then there are those that show a cupped hand believing the audience sees it MT. It is used without thought of some kind of routine in which the hand would be MT.

Yes, people will applaud these actions.
Does that make it magic?

People are polite.
Silence does not mean agreement.

Here is a way to see through all of this chatter. Many know my theory on this. It is called the three levels of deception.

Clown Magic
Theater Magic
Virtual Magic

Briefly, clown magic has a magical quality to it but it fools no one. Mouth coils.
Theater Magic depends on the audience suspending disbelief. Essentially the audience sees something funny about the moves but chooses to ignore it.
Virtual Magic occurs when the audience cannot detect any funny motions and cannot discern how the event might even be accomplished. In virtual magic, small finger movement is a concern.

Each has a pattern of audience response that characterizes the type.

In theater magic the audience will show surprise and applause enthusiastically to the show.

In virtual magic, the audience will not respond. The vanishing bird cage is an example of this. I once performed it as my opener. When the cage disappeared, the audience simply sat there and did not respond. After such a show, members of the audience would often approach me and ask, “Where’d the bird go.” The audience does not applaud because they do not know what to applaud. They don’t credit the performer for they don’t know if he caused it to happen.

Magicians tend to avoid virtual magic because it doesn’t get a response. Most magicians need a response so are willing to dumb down their magic to get it. From my point of view this means the performer is more interested in his welfare rather than consider what the audience really wants.

This can be a problem for the professional. He is hired by people that want to see a response from the audience. He must follow the golden rule, he who has the gold makes the rules.

Most magicians on this forum believe they do virtual magic but is actually low level theater magic. When you suggest that they bully you and their followers throw stones at you. Then the magic mafia goes into gear.
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
Zauberman
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Perhaps....we should start a separate thread, entitled:

SHOW US YOUR RETENTION VANISH

Really, I think it would be very interesting and informative.

It's easy to critique but difficult to show by example.

So whadya say guys, anyone else in Smile
Jiceh
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On Feb 22, 2017, Al Schneider wrote:
In virtual magic, the audience will not respond. The vanishing bird cage is an example of this. I once performed it as my opener. When the cage disappeared, the audience simply sat there and did not respond. After such a show, members of the audience would often approach me and ask, “Where’d the bird go.” The audience does not applaud because they do not know what to applaud. They don’t credit the performer for they don’t know if he caused it to happen.

Magicians tend to avoid virtual magic because it doesn’t get a response. Most magicians need a response so are willing to dumb down their magic to get it. From my point of view this means the performer is more interested in his welfare rather than consider what the audience really wants.


If you take a look at a lot of street magic (on the net or on tv), you will see that all the attention (or at least a big part of it) is on the reactions of the spectators, not on the magic atmosphere. As the reactions are "big ones", you can conclude that they are a reflection (an echo) of the magic but that's not the case. Most of the times, the tricks used are visuals ones with no real construction as "magic presentation" is concerned. Magic is not really concerned with these tricks. These kind of presentation are a simplification and an erosion of magic.

Screaming is not necessary a good reaction and most of the times, it's a bad one
Saying "I wouldn't play cards with you" is not a good reaction after seing a car trick
Saying" I was near him and I saw Nothing" is not a good reaction too

Saying “Where’d the bird go" is better because there is an "hidden" reference to mystery
Michael Rubinstein
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Guys, it's not the vanish and who has the best one. They are all good, and comparing which has a bigger or smaller finger movement is minutia. It's what you do right after that counts. It's what you do right after that counts. It's what you do right after that counts. Oh, and one more thing. It's what you do right after that counts.
AT LAST - a NEW fun coins across!! MIGRATE is filled with laughs, magic, cool moves, lasts over 3 minutes, uses props, comes in a Poker Chip version or special Deluxe version with coins, and is about...BEARS! AT DEALERS EVERYWHERE!
https://youtu.be/hzf-Trbs4Ts

https://youtu.be/gGjMtW1DLjA

ALSO...available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
I HAVE A LIMITED AMOUNT OF COPIES AVAILABLE TO BE SIGNED, AND COME WITH A SPECIAL FREE GIFT! If interested, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com I also have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book, let me know if you want a pricelist.
Al Schneider
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Zauberman
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Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
funsway
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Quote:
On Feb 22, 2017, Zauberman wrote:
Perhaps....we should start a separate thread, entitled:

SHOW US YOUR RETENTION VANISH

Really, I think it would be very interesting and informative.

It's easy to critique but difficult to show by example.

So whadya say guys, anyone else in Smile


Trouble is, the best may show terribly on a video. Al has noted they all draw unnecessary attention o the receiving hand.

A video does this even more so. I would wish to see the moves preceding and following the sleight with the one "never happened" the best.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

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pabloinus
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Funsway, I think this is what Rubinstein said above, the move for the move means nothing unless you see it within the context of what happened after (and before).
I have seen videos of routines by Rubinstein, Schneider, Roth, Maryon, Ponta, and others and I get fooled all the times because there is a continuation of the action before and after the ROV (which is a mean not an end), and never a small move of the fingers created a noticeable discrepancy. It is also true that I watch the videos as a spectator more than a magician, but the fact is all ROVs worked in those contexts.
Al Schneider
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Funsway
Would you stop putting words in my mouth. I find it annoying.
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
vinsmagic
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MICKEY SILVER IS THE GREATET COINWORKER OF THE 20TH CENTRY AND 21 CENTRY AND INCLUDESD SLYDIIknow this is a bold statement,

but what he does with the coins has never been done before
vinny
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http://www.vinnymarini.com
vinsmagic
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MICKEY SILVER IS THE GREATEST COINWORKER OF THE 20TH CENTRY AND 21 CENTRY AND INCLUDESD Slydini..... now this is a bold statement,

but what he does with the coins has never been done before
vinny
Come check out my magic.

http://www.vinnymarini.com
funsway
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On Feb 22, 2017, Al Schneider wrote:
Funsway
Would you stop putting words in my mouth. I find it annoying.



Sorry, I will put quotes around your statements then. Just trying to support your ideas in a softer way.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
Jiceh
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Quote:
On Feb 22, 2017, Michael Rubinstein wrote:
Guys, it's not the vanish and who has the best one. They are all good, and comparing which has a bigger or smaller finger movement is minutia. It's what you do right after that counts. It's what you do right after that counts. It's what you do right after that counts. Oh, and one more thing. It's what you do right after that counts.


It's what you do right after that counts = I agree
Can I modestly add : The context in which you use the move counts as much as what you do right after the move
Al Schneider
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So what about Zaubermench idea?
I suggest some guidelines on how to rate such an event.

How entertaining is it?
An ROV must be used.
How deceptive is it?
The format can be a display of the move itself.
The format can also be a complete routine of which the move is a part.
No trick photography.

There is criticism that a video is not a good representation of magic.
Well, it seems that is what this is all about.
Videos are everywhere. When is the last time you saw a magician live?
Some wizard of smart accused me of living in the past.
I love the use of videos to share information.
If you criticize the use of video, YOU are living in the past.

And I guarantee that this idea of putting up or shutting up will go nowhere.
Reason: Those that flap their lips the most know they will lose.
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
Stperformer
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Sounds like fun. I'm aboard, will try & film a clip tomorrow.

Should we make it a separate thread???
Hare
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Mickey Silver elaborates on how much more effective his ROV is by setting it up with a toss in the air before the move happens, and Doc Rubinstein points out that what you do after the ROV move, to add space away from the "move" before the reveal is of utmost importance.

In a sense, they are talking about exactly the same thing- distracting the audience away from the moment of secret action- they just are using their own experience; approaching the problem from different ends.

I'm reminded of my favorite magic author, Henry Hay, in his masterpiece from 1950, when he talks about performances on film.

"Nearly all hand magic rests on association.

Of all the wonderful sleight-of-hand experts in the world, probably not a dozen can stand up against a slow-motion camera. Take away the misdirection and the timing, and anyone can see the coin revolving to the back of the hand, the billard ball being surreptitiously gobbled by the left fist instead of carried away by the right.

Slow-motion camera perfection is the last stage that even a great expert finally attains. But thanks to the twists in people's minds, you can get along very nicely without this perfection."
"Better described in The Amateur Magician's Handbook"
Michael Rubinstein
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Well said Hare. Here is a post of a routine I perform where by action I lead my audience. You may or may not like it, you can critique it or not. There is time misdirection used after the transfer, and direction as to where the coin went. I am happy with this routine. If you want to watch the breakdown on the variation retention pass and the ROPS move, you can see them close up in my Encyclopedia of Coin Sleights and the Penguin lectures. But please don't critique a move when someone just looks at a move. Because the move is shown out of context. Someone wrote as a comment on one of my youtube posts (maybe this one!) that my pass is terrible, and I should have learned how to do Roth's pass. Oh well. Here it is.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=whG4lSNN4dI
I will try to put up a second routine as well where I also direct a spectator as to where the coin went. I will look for it now
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-Wmr0drxM9s
AT LAST - a NEW fun coins across!! MIGRATE is filled with laughs, magic, cool moves, lasts over 3 minutes, uses props, comes in a Poker Chip version or special Deluxe version with coins, and is about...BEARS! AT DEALERS EVERYWHERE!
https://youtu.be/hzf-Trbs4Ts

https://youtu.be/gGjMtW1DLjA

ALSO...available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
I HAVE A LIMITED AMOUNT OF COPIES AVAILABLE TO BE SIGNED, AND COME WITH A SPECIAL FREE GIFT! If interested, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com I also have some limited supplies of coins and props used in the book, let me know if you want a pricelist.
Al Schneider
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Stperformer
Let's see if we can get 4 more people before we put our heart and soul into it.
This could be fun.
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
Mb217
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Great conversation here from a variety of viewpoints, and all are to be seriously considered. Some are like water color and others like oil paintings...some just sketches but all important. Smile

I can remember many years back now, Mickey Silver did a "demonstration" video of his SUV (Silver Ultimate Vanish), a version of the ROV, but it remains the very best one I've ever seen...Still is to this day. I have never seen it any more vividly done by anyone. I'm sure our Café friend here Smile&Nod would particularly appreciate his work, as he presents this illusion. Smile Most of all, he very simply does what Doc explains, as to having a reason for using the move and verification that it is what it looks like by having a way to go after it's gone. Mickey, in the demo, simply goes back to his pocket to grab another coin...SImple! See for yourself here...

www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9LP0q1rtco

Now, there are many ways to do this, and Mickey shows some, but there are dozens of other ways for a variety of situations. I think most use the move as a ways to a means, within an effect or routine, and it works. The simple one described in Bobo's and so many others that are used out there in so many progressive ways all have their place. I often wonder where we would be with this, if we didn't have video and could not more openly see what so many people are doing as to it. To my knowledge, unlike some here, Mickey Silver has not written a book, or taken part in these big online magic lectures (just how in the world could that be in this day and age???), so to see his videos of some of this work, typically shows you something you have not seen or seen done so deliberately well, and typically you are in awe and cannot believe your eyes. Perhaps this is magic?

I am happy that we are in this day as to technology and that not just the BIG, but also the Small and All of us can participate. No one knows it all, no one can do it all. We are all put here to contribute to all that and show a flowerbed of brilliance as to magic and life. I believe that's pretty much the way God meant for it to be, even in spite of ourselves some times, even for ROVs. Smile So, you can go deep or not very deep at all, it all gets mixed toward moving better forward. For me, the work of Mickey Silver remains jaw dropping and hard to resist. It's an amazing move, you can certainly substitute a pass for it and still be well on your way, but that's up to you as it should be. Smile
*Check out my latest: Gifts From The Old Country: A Mini-Magic Book, MBs Mini-Lecture on Coin Magic, The MB Tanspo PLUS, MB's Morgan, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic Smile


"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb Smile
pabloinus
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Let's start with Michael's first youtube above, the one with the 4 coins and the 2 cards, using Schneider criteria (from 1 low to 5 high)

Format: Routine with ROV
How entertaining is it? 5
How deceptive is it? 5, I like that after the vanish the spectator has the answer under the card
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