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vinsmagic Eternal Order sleeping with the fishes... 10959 Posts 
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Vernon never seen mickey... sorry to leave you out Al
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Lawrens Godon Inner circle France 1108 Posts
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Quote:
On Feb 23, 2017, Michael Rubinstein wrote: Thanks for mentioning me Michael, this means a lot to me. (In fact I use back thumb palm, not back finger palm)... Since 2011 when I published Moneypulation vol.1, I've made a lot of discoveries which I plan to release at some point. Regarding this thread, and to keep things on track, when I do a ROV I always follow it with a DBTP, which immediately cancel the fact that I could have keep the coin in the other hand. Why ? Because they can SEE that the hand is empty, so the coin has to be in the receiving hand ! 
All the best to all and good magic ! |
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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On Feb 23, 2017, fonda57 wrote: So the illusion is very good but it puts attention on the fact that the coin is transfered ... and we want to avoid that |
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funsway Inner circle old things in new ways - new things in old ways 9987 Posts
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Quote:
On Feb 24, 2017, Jiceh wrote: It depends on the routine, no? imagine a pile of coins on your right. Four of these are picked up one a time and transferred to the left hand, which then places the coin in a spectator's hand. Each handling is identical as to finger position, flash and timing. The right hand is shown empty after each transfer. The spectator verifies they have four coins. Later on, it is discover they only have three coins. A Retention Sleight occurred at some point. No one, not even a coin mechanic with video rewind, should be able to discern which of the four passes was fake - or even suspect that a false pass occurred. One problem is calling the moves a "Vanish" because ideally the reveal of the vanish is asynchronous with the placement, i.e. there are other moves in between. In some routines like Mickey's I do not see "vanish" - instead I see transportations, productions and penetrations. Is this "better" than other approaches? Certainly not "best" since that is entirely subjective. I prefer magic events and routines based more on Al's 'Basic Vanish' than any 'POV Vanish' -- not because "he does it better," but because it fits in with my style and other sleights employed. I also prefer Fake Takes over Fake Place (not limited to French Drop) Each of you is different and must explore what works for you and the expected audience and the setting and routine flow. If you are table hopping and the same routine may be seen multiple times, you are prepared to use different sleight each time, right? The 'best" is the one that has each observer say, "So that is what real magic looks like." I can't show you my best sleight. I can only work on having the one I do tomorrow be better than today. I am not in competition with anyone but myself.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst
eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com |
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fonda57 Inner circle chicago 3080 Posts
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Jicah--that's why you need misdirection
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pabloinus Inner circle 1681 Posts
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I think if I summarize all these posts for me, the take away are 1) Comparing the ROV (or any sleight for that matter) by itself is not enough to determine if it is good, bad or best unless it could be used satisfactory in a context of a routine, where it came from and where it goes after. 2) The ROV (or any sleight) should be able to be incorporated to the characteristics/persona of the user to work correctly. 3) It is important to understand the feedback from the audience, as a formal statement (the coin is in the other hand!) or as non formal statement (silence because they did not want to hurt the feelings of the magician)
Maybe there are other points but the 3 above are the main ones for me |
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vinsmagic Eternal Order sleeping with the fishes... 10959 Posts
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Here is Mickey doing his retention vanish called the SUV in a couple of routines
https://youtu.be/Mo5qFz9nVSM https://youtu.be/ivvHfLhhzFc |
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pabloinus Inner circle 1681 Posts
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If I used the same criteria that I used for Michael's routine on Mickey's routine
Format: Routine with ROV (SUV) How entertaining is it? 5 How deceptive is it? 5, I like that after the coin is put under the card the hand goes to the pile to take another coin directing the audience attention out of the dirty hand. Very nice |
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Al Schneider V.I.P. A corn field in WI surrounded by 1080 Posts
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I now see what the problem is.
Vinny and MB have no clue what virtual magic is. To them the magic world is theater magic where the performer requires the audience to suspend belief in the real world. When I talk technology they blast me with personal attacks. Then there minions join in on the attack. Then they show videos that they think prove them right.
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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Quote:
On Feb 24, 2017, fonda57 wrote: The main quality of a retention vanish is the retention Do you think that misdirection erase the "transfer aspect" without degrading the "retention aspect"? Using misirection during a classic false transfer seems good but with a retention vanish, the risk is that the "retention" is completly erased. So why using retention? |
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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On Feb 24, 2017, vinsmagic wrote: Mickey silver is fabulous without a doubt |
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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On Feb 24, 2017, vinsmagic wrote: One more point : Mickey Silver's attitude communicates something (amazement?) which is completely different from the (perfect) technical aspect of his magic. So his attitude puts enphasize on an "emotion" or a "sensation" and the quality of the magic doesn't create a "dissonance". Mickey silver is very very good. |
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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Quote:
On Feb 24, 2017, funsway wrote: Mickey Silver has created a "personnality" which makes a retention vanish natural. In the same way, when you see Slydini, the way he creates tension and relaxation is very unique and personnal. If you imitate him, it is very curious, isn't it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xcr5piwbUP4 About transfering a coin using a retention vanish simulacre : It's curious because the attitude of the magician (the whole sequence) has a "theatrical" aspect that doesn't encourage the Spectator to find the sequence natural and honest. If the magician is Mickey Silver, it's different because his "excentric" personnage justifies this kind of moves ... |
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fonda57 Inner circle chicago 3080 Posts
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Why do a retention pass with misdirection? Why not do it with misdirection. I don't know about you, but I like to do moves on an offbeat, as they say, and that includes this kind of pass. You really want people looking directly at your hands while doing a move? I know there's the burn, but that's not enough for me.
But that's me. I'm sure the way you do it is awesome. Magic is fun. |
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ZachDavenport Inner circle Last time I posted I had one less than 1196 Posts
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Why are people talking about who the "best" is? Don't get me wrong, one magician an be empirically better than another (Nobody would say the 12 year old on youtube revealing tricks he hasn't learned is better than David Roth for example) but art is subjective. I personally can't stand Jackson Pollack. I think his work is just dumb. But he accomplished what he set out to do just as well as Salvador Dali or Monet. I just don't happen to like what he set out to do. Similarly, Micky Silver has accomplished what he was going for and so has Al Schneider and David Roth and Micheal Rubinstein, etc. They have all accomplished what they were going for just as well as the others You may or may not like it, but that's what art is. Its not one size fits all, so no artist can be the "best."
Reality is a real killjoy.
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vinsmagic Eternal Order sleeping with the fishes... 10959 Posts
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Mickey silver is a magical performer a showman....a entertainer .
there are many technical performers with unbelievable skills but are very boring,,,,,and do not entertain, and finally, there are the magicians that try and push their theories on you and if you and, if don't agree with them then you are a a also ran..... |
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Al Schneider V.I.P. A corn field in WI surrounded by 1080 Posts
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Hey vinny, what’s the difference between these two videos?
https://youtu.be/NL_isdqiF0A https://youtu.be/ivvHfLhhzFc
Magic Al. Say it fast and it is magical.
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harris Inner circle Harris Deutsch 8812 Posts
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A. Magic Al
B. Window dressing. Music C. Some similarities Transfer D. Plots can be described simply E. Repeats F. Repetition Too late to be criticing either Will look again when brain not so jumbled Yet I go on.. G. I liked the props coin and one of favorite accessory H. I like the handz statues I. Coins go in " 2 directions" Coins go in 1 " one direction "
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
drlaugh4u@gmail.com music, magic and marvelous toys http://magician.org/member/drlaugh4u |
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Jiceh Special user France 742 Posts
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Quote:
On Feb 24, 2017, fonda57 wrote: In reality I agree : I prefer a classic false transfer with misdirection rather than a retention vanish. In fact I rarely use a retention vanish. My point is : Is a retention vanish something of real value? |
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evikshin Special user 892 Posts
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Misdirection and the false transfer (conversation above)
Whether to use misdirection or not depends on the context of the routine, it's not a black and white issue. First of all, what are we using the false transfer for? To free up the hand to pick something up like a wand/other coins/cellphone? In such a case, if you make the focus of your attention the object to be picked up, then you have rendered the false transfer invisible. It comes across as something incidental. This makes sense in the context of some routines, and is what should be done! In the above context, any false transfer will work, it does not have to be an ROV. If it is an ROV, better make it casual and off the cuff! But what about 1-Coin-Routines? It makes no sense to misdirect away from false transfers here, if you were going to do that, you might as well not have them watch you perform (after all it's a bunch of false transfers strung together!). Sure, there is definitely "direction of attention" of the spectator in all good 1-Coin-Routines, but this is somewhat of a different topic from misdirecting AWAY from the false transfer. Sure, the moves can be made to be motivated to give the routine it's own magical logic and to smooth things out, but again, different. What about coins through the table?: See Michael Rubinstein's video of his 4 coins through the table. He does not misdirect away from the initial false transfer, but instead attention is focused on it, because it makes sense to, after all, he's counting coins. You can argue that that the counting of the coins is intrinsic misdirection away from the dirty work, but this is somewhat different from what is being discussed. He has some moments where attention is not totally focused on the false transfer, but not totally misdirected away from either, and some moments where attention is COMPLETELY misdirected away from dirty moments, to make everything make sense within the flow of the routine. We could discuss other genres like hanging coins, coins across, Okito Box etc. But take a look at the really skilled practitioners and take note of how they deal with misdirection as it applies to their false transfers, how, why, and under which circumstances. Who's your audience? Other magicians? Knowledgeable laypeople vs. naive laypeople? Etc. What do you want the spectator to "see," all of these questions will inform how to handle our false transfers. Thanks |
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Posted: Feb 24, 2017 08:26 am 
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