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0pus Inner circle New Jersey 1739 Posts |
Quote:
On Jul 20, 2016, TomBoleware wrote: Well, Tom, I am shocked that you are an apologist for Glenn Turner. He was a genuinely bad person. To say that "during the 70's there were no laws for the MLM industry" is patently absurd. There were laws. They were antifraud laws and wire fraud laws and Turner violated many of them. And I believe he did so knowingly. And to say that Turner spent millions to "get the government to tell him how to operate legally" is ludicrous. Who was he paying in the government? The government does not tell businesses how to operate legally. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
This puts a lot of things in perspective.
It is the equivalent of saying that before the first serial killer there were no laws against it so he spent minions trying to get the government to pass them. Being ignorant of the law does not give one a pass.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
0pus,
I don’t believe I said he was paying the government anything. Maybe you need to read “Dare To Be Great” and “The Unstoppable American” to get your facts straight. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Quote:
On Jul 20, 2016, TomBoleware wrote: This certainly implies he paid the government. So what do you mean by this? He spent the money in legal fees for his crimes? Yes someone needs to get the facts straight. You
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
Yes it was for legal fees. Because the laws weren't clear back then.
Paying lawyers like F. Lee Bailey to sort it all out broke him. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
Quote:
On Jul 20, 2016, 0pus wrote: That's absurd. Of course they tell businesses how to operate legally. They publish a book. The contents of that book are called laws. Sheesh! |
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0pus Inner circle New Jersey 1739 Posts |
Bill, I think you have it backwards. Generally laws do not tell businesses how to operate legally; they tell businesses that if they operate in certain ways, then they are operating illegally.
Tom's protest that Turner did not know what he was doing was illegal is entirely disingenuous. His operation was one big "chain letter." Those (and numerous variations on chain letters - like Bernie Madoff's operation) have been illegal for many, many years. Turner's was certainly not the first. They are called "Ponzi schemes." Anyone - like Turner - operating a Ponzi scheme certainly knows what he is doing - and that it is illegal. Ponzi schemes are run by a central operator, who uses the money from new, incoming victims to pay off the promised returns to older ones. This makes the operation seem profitable and legitimate, even though no actual profit is being made. Meanwhile, the person behind the scheme pockets the extra money or uses it to expand the operation. [http://www.businessinsider.com/how-berni......d-2014-7] And, I really don't think I Quote:
. . . need to read "Dare To Be Great" and "The Unstoppable American" to get [my] facts straight. I have gotten my facts from reading the legal opinions in the cases, albeit several years ago. I don't need to read a load of hogwash from third parties about what a saint Turner was. His actions spoke much louder than the words in either book. |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
Not really taking up for him because under today’s laws he couldn’t do what he did. But the FACT is, during those times 700 lawsuits
were filed against him by over eager lawyers and spurred on by politicians looking for votes. He successfully defended 699 of those lawsuits,(That should tell you something) but the suits and negative media publicity achieved it's intended purpose bleeding him of his cash flow and his lawyer. Keep in mind the courts thought ALL franchising was a pyramid scheme back then but there were no clear guidelines to go by. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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0pus Inner circle New Jersey 1739 Posts |
I guess we just disagree about Turner.
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
No problem with disagreeing and thanks for your thoughts.
Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
699 out of 700 means nothing. So according to your logic the same thing applies to Capone and Gotti?
Before RICO none of that was a crime? He was a CRIMINAL and that is a FACT.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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S2000magician Inner circle Yorba Linda, CA 3465 Posts |
Quote:
On Jul 21, 2016, 0pus wrote: And if they don't operate in any of those ways, they're not operating illegally; hence, the laws say that if they operate in any way other than those ways, they're operating legally. |
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0pus Inner circle New Jersey 1739 Posts |
You seem to be describing civil law. Under a civil law system (like France and Louisiana - the only civil law state in the United States of America - remember Stanley Kowalski? "Now we got here in the state of Louisiana what's known as the Napoleonic code."), one is permitted to do - legally - that which is not prohibited. And that comports with your formulation.
However, under a common law system (like England, every state in the United States except Louisiana, and US federal law), people and enterprises are expected to act reasonably; laws and precedents provide benchmarks for how NOT to act, but one is still charged with acting fairly and reasonably. As an example, one of the charges against Enron was that they did not disclose "off balance sheet" transactions. These transactions were specifically contemplated by accounting rules and regulations as not requiring disclosure or public reporting in material filed with the SEC, etc. Enron scrupulously (if one can use that term in connection with Enron) followed the requirements for keeping those transactions off their balance sheet. However, it was found that there was so much residual liability to Enron in these off balance sheet transactions (there was an enormous number of them) that, notwithstanding the rules for treating them as off balance sheet transactions, Enron nevertheless should have disclosed them. That is to say that in this case there was no regulation requiring disclosure - and in fact there were regulations that sanctioned non-disclosure - but observing those rules still resulted in illegal activity. Because Enron did not act fairly and reasonably. |
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Stu Montgomery Veteran user St Petersburg FL 354 Posts |
I was/am an Accredited Counter Fraud Officer & Police Detective Officer. I have a fair amount of experience dealing with people roped into these get rich quick schemes. In every single case, bar none, they were introduced to "the business" and "the product" in an almost evangelical, hard sell, sales pitch. Uncannily, the sales script (regardless of the company - from candles to aloe Vera) was all but word for word identical. Usually beginning with some story of "John" who started in "the business" & now has cleared his mortgage, lives in a mansion in Spain, drives a Rolls Royce & owns a luxury yacht...all from "the business" selling "the product." In every case, they bought this wonderful "product" which was vastly overpriced at wholesale & almost unsellable at retail, were encouraged to attend (and pay for) the annual conference (which frankly Peter Popoff would have been proud of for its evangelical hysterics) and "believe" because "they too" were part of "the business."
All have been left well out of pocket, with unsellable stock, having made nothing (despite their very best efforts), and all were very much pressured to "sign up" others...for which they'd receive some reward or payment. Although no criminality was evident in the way these firms operated (they offered a product for sale for which the person would receive some payment - albeit minimal), morally their practices were truly abhorrent. The retail equivalent of TV evangelists...slick, polished presentation with one aim, to gather the flock & make the preacher a pretty penny!
"Round about what is, lies a whole mysterious world of might be" Longfellow.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
This is why I wanted Tom to tell us what the name of the companies he speaks for is. This way we can all see the ONE example of it actually working.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
The very name multi-level marketing triggers suspicions and so it is a bad way to sell it to start with. Multi-level reminds one of a pyramid. What sort of person would want to be part of a pyramid when they can ride around on their camel on the level? The sort person that would join the masons I guess.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Micheal Leath Inner circle 1048 Posts |
Quote:
On Jul 24, 2016, Dannydoyle wrote: Isn't funny how he doesn't want to name this totally legit company? |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
I find it odd yes. Why not share it with everyone?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
The higher up the ladder you get the more you get to know or you can stay on your camel.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
Stu Montgomery, I know some magicians that went to prison, so do you call everyone in the magic business crooks?
Of course you don’t and to suggest that all MLM people are dishonest is very dishonest. Like I said, I didn’t start this topic to promote myself. I try to show some respect by not wanting free advertising and some are demanding that I do. LOL Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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