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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » How to guess name (22 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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E.E.
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13 steps and PME is heavy read for a beginner.
Unlike what someone said above, I don't think it's necessary to learn magic in order to become a successful mentalist.
I shall see you on the other side.
Alexxander
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You don't need to be an magic expert, but it sure does help to have some kind of understanding of how to deceive the mind of spectators and how to misdirect them.

Books like "Leading with your head" by Gary Kurtz, or "The 5 points in magic" by Tamariz, or "Strong Magic" / "Designing Miracles" by Darwin Ortiz are great magic books for the mentalist.
magicsachin
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Having knowledge in Magic principles will definitely help to learn Mentalism much quicker.

Most of the mentalism acts done with props are based on magic principles only Smile
Thank You Smile
Philemon Vanderbeck
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Having knowledge in theatre will also help tremendously.
Professor Philemon Vanderbeck
That Creepy Magician
"I use my sixth sense to create the illusion of possessing the other five."
sychou
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E.E is a great guy,but I humbly disagree with your opinion(quote:I don't think it's necessary to learn magic in order to become a successful mentalist).
I think most of mentalist started out as a magician and after years of practice magic they find out the true power of magic-mentalism,then revolve into a mentalist.
Most top mentalist have deep knowledge in magic,such as Derren Brown,David Berglas,Max Maven,their card magic is also very top notch.
Besides,most top magician also have a deep understanding in mentalism,although they don't strictly perform mentalism effect or bill themselves as mentalist,
such as Eugene Burger,David Blaine...etc.
Indeed,some of top mentalist don't start out as a magician such as Banachek,but that does not mean they don't learn magic.
Since method of mentalism is mostly rely on magic principle and gimmick,and mentalism is usually considered a sub division of magic,
it's odd to say that learn magic is not necessary for mentalist.
E.E.
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Agree to diasgree Smile

I don't think true mentalism have anything to do with magic methodology.
Most mentalism techniques were adapted by magicians back from the days of mediums and spiritists.

Mentalism is closely related to mediumship and spiritism... but with time, it has been gradually morphing into what it is today, due to the fact that more and more magicians were getting into mentalism.

Nail w, Pocket w, CT, S*itching techniques, S*ates, C*ld reading, etc. those are not magic methods... and you could perform a whole show using only these tools.
I shall see you on the other side.
Mindpro
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Quote:
On Sep 4, 2016, sychou wrote:
E.E is a great guy,but I humbly disagree with your opinion(quote:I don't think it's necessary to learn magic in order to become a successful mentalist).


I agree, there are plenty of mentalists that did not start out in magic or come to mentalism from a magic background. They often don't have any of the problems and struggles that guys coming form magic do. Some of them are quite easy to spot once this is understood as they tend not to get caught up in many of the aspects that come from magic or a magic background. Many of these guys come from the mental arts.

Also not all mentalism is an illusion or slight as E.E. has previously stated in another thread. Many mentalists do everything in their show for real such as memory, mathematics, influence, Hellstromism, readings, etc. Only the magician turned mentalist has many of these hangups and perceptions.
sychou
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I am a magician and mentalist.
I can do memory,influence, Hellstromism, readings,propless mentalism very well.
I think many discern between magician and mentalist comes from ego aspect.
Yes,mentalism closely related to mediumship and spiritism,but for modern day mentalist,magic and mentalism have a strong relation.
For lay audience,I never bill my self as a mentalist,since most lay audience don't know what is a mentalist mean in my country.
I just say I am a magician.
I even perform magic and mentalism in the same show,
I don't find it lessen the power of those considered traditional mentalism effect at all,
and some of my original effects are hybrids of magic and mentalism effects,it's hard to label it as pure magic or pure mentalism.
but at the end,many audiences tell me what I do is not magic,many believe it's super power or real deal although I never claim so.
From my experience,my vast knowledge in magic helps a lot when I create my own original effects,
actually,when I create an effect,I don't started out by thinking if I want to create a mentalism effect or a magic effect,I just want to create an effect that matters to my audience.
Hope that clarify and inspiring.
Mindpro
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I never said magicians coming to mentalism couldn't do memory, influence, Hellstromism, readings, etc. well. I'm just saying many of the mindsets, mentalities and approaches of magicians are not present with others not coming from magic, that's all. So there is much less concern of them being seen as a magician or it as magic. They approach it with an entirely different mindset which, in my experience with many of these guys, is much less complicated.

I still believe that if you call yourself a magician or even use any typical references to such, you will always be seen as simply a magician. I would see the fact that your people do not know what a mentalist is as an opportunity not a detriment. To lay people they believe and want to believe there is a difference.
sychou
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I fully understand the different mind set between typical magic and typical mentalism.
I just find myself transcend into a new state where the labeling don't bother me anymore,
what I do now for my audience couldn't be simplified into typical magic or typical mentalism ....etc
,it's just...what I do.
Don't be trapped by names,definition,label...it came from the ancient oriental wisdom.
I just let my audience interpret what they saw,and I am sure they experienced at least true astonishment or transformation.
I don't mean to be arrogant or imply I am better than any fellow magician,mentalists,
I only mind if I did better than myself.
I don't hope anyone understand or appreciate my belief,I just want to share my experience,it works very well for me at current stage.
Dr Spektor
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New thread

"How to guess if mentalist or magician"
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
E.E.
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I'm sorry I started this out.
I shall see you on the other side.
Mindpro
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Quote:
On Sep 4, 2016, sychou wrote:
I fully understand the different mind set between typical magic and typical mentalism.
I just find myself transcend into a new state where the labeling don't bother me anymore,
what I do now for my audience couldn't be simplified into typical magic or typical mentalism ....etc
,it's just...what I do.
Don't be trapped by names,definition,label...it came from the ancient oriental wisdom.
I just let my audience interpret what they saw,and I am sure they experienced at least true astonishment or transformation.
I don't mean to be arrogant or imply I am better than any fellow magician,mentalists,
I only mind if I did better than myself.
I don't hope anyone understand or appreciate my belief,I just want to share my experience,it works very well for me at current stage.



Lol, hence my point. Look how many times you mentioned I, myself, me. Being an entertainer is out those that hire you and those that pay to see you. Them, they, the client, the audience. No mention of "I." Again, a lot of magician's mentalities here. I'm glad you think it works for you.
sychou
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E.E,you are nice guy,I respect your point.
Sorry the thread is off the topic.
Last post here,I don't want to turn into a argue,lost the point.
Of course,you are MindPro,the profession.
Anyway,I don't consider myself magician,or mentalist.
Most of time,I just perform for entertaining my friends,yes I don't earn my living for performing magic,
because I earn my living doing other jobs,magic,mentalism is my life time hobby.
And sorry if there is too many "I" in my post that bothers you.
And sorry my belief sounds like "magician's mentalities" here,You are welcomed to state your point.
Hope to stop here. Thank you.
Sean Giles
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Huh? You said that you've transcended into a new state and are not trapped by definitions as it all came from ancient oriental wisdom. And many audiences tell you it's not magic and they believe you have super powers and are the real deal.

Then in the next post you say that most of time you just perform entertaining your friends and don't earn money performing magic.

Just wondering, cause I find your position interesting and a bit confusing, is it your friends that believe you have super powers?
sychou
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This thread should be moved to "why mentalist hate magician" thread...LOL.
I started to feel a bit tiring answering those questions...
For clarify,
My old long time friends don't think I have any paranormal power,I did not claim so either.
Of course they know I am just a normal person.
My old personal life time friends saw me continue growing as a man who dedicated so much into "the art"
,they just think me as a person with special ability due to decade of dedication,
and they won't call my performance as merely magic.

The situation you mentioned:
"many audiences tell you it's not magic and they believe you have super powers and are the real deal"
The people I refer to is new friends in social meeting and audiences in my public performance,
many thought I have special ability,that is not something to brag about,
if we do our job well enough,it's natural for many audiences do believe.
Many mentalist could achieve this status.
Steven Keyl
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Don't think magic and mentalism mix? The ability to turn any thread, even one completely unrelated to the topic, into a soapbox (and one that might appear to the uninitiated to smack of arrogant presumption) of why mentalism is better than magic... that is magic, my friends, well done.

It's so tiring to see such patronizing attitudes from some posters when anyone, however rationally and respectfully, disagrees with the hive mind that permeates the mentalism forums. Is it in the realm of possibility that others, with completely different backgrounds and perspectives, may have something of value to say, even if it runs counter to the collective? Can we for at least a moment, consider the possibility that we don't in fact know everything?

By opening ourselves to the tiniest grain of intellectual humility we may come to have a better understanding of these issues, rather than circling the wagon trains and closing ourselves off to any thoughts other than our own.

syschou, if you've found a style that works for you, congrats my friend. That is farther than most of us get.
Steven Keyl - The Human Whisperer!

Come visit Magic Book Report.com!

"If you ever find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause, and reflect." --Mark Twain
sychou
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There's a thread in "You are getting sleepy...very sleepy" that titled
"Trolls and Bullies on the Hypno threads".

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......forum=22

That's why I almost don't post new topic there anymore,
Because I don't like the way some guys there treat others.

Fortunately we still have many warm&kind people in "penny for your thoughts" board.
Steven Keyl,thanks for your warm supporting.
I enjoyed your card magic book blog a lot,
a very valuable reference before I buy card magic books.
I also enjoy E.E's Manoeda effect that I bought from penguin magic,
and we've discussed some mentalism idea via PM,he is kind to help.

Quote from Steve keyl:"By opening ourselves to the tiniest grain of intellectual humility we may come to have a better understanding of these issues, rather than circling the wagon trains and closing ourselves off to any thoughts other than our own."
A very valuable point from Steve,
just like the great Bruce Lee once said "Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless - like water"
Be water my friends~
TheSecretFire
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..... so Nate51, I saw your question a few minutes ago and couldn't help but notice that the thread has gone off on a tangent, but I would like to partially answer your question.

***(caps used for emphasis, not aggression)***

First, simply reading 13 steps and PME doesn't do you any good. You need to STUDY the works, re-visit them, understand them, and perform the techniques described. Then you'll really start seeing the value in those pages.

And second, how did he guess the name? Heck, I don't know. It can be very tempting to search through books and forums, looking for the "secret sauce someone else used", though here's something to remember: there is gold in the books, but THE GOLD lies in your imagination. If you were performing a name guess, how would YOU do it?

Good luck

Tom Phoenix
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