The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Penn & Teller VS Mentalism (36 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4 [Next]
WitchDocChris
View Profile
Inner circle
York, PA
2588 Posts

Profile of WitchDocChris
I would think Brown's performances are right up Penn's alley considering he outright states that he has no powers and is mixing magic and showmanship with genuine psychology. Brown's often pretty honest about what he's doing with his stage shows.
Christopher
Witch Doctor

Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4
Nestor D
View Profile
Special user
France (Paris)
796 Posts

Profile of Nestor D
Did you know that he had a séance with Teller, with bi***t work ? Smile

So many peoples saying what Penn does, did, knows and likes. We are all familiar with his personna but I doubt that we know much of the man.
Twisted Mentat
View Profile
Regular user
Giedi Prime
147 Posts

Profile of Twisted Mentat
Seance was held in a light and funny way? Lol.
AttnPls
View Profile
Special user
548 Posts

Profile of AttnPls
We know what Penn has told us and the world. I do not think there is any hidden subtext, what you see is most likely what you get.
solarpk
View Profile
New user
51 Posts

Profile of solarpk
Quote:
On Sep 14, 2016, WitchDocChris wrote:
I would think Brown's performances are right up Penn's alley considering he outright states that he has no powers and is mixing magic and showmanship with genuine psychology. Brown's often pretty honest about what he's doing with his stage shows.


Oh, I am absolutely sure they agree with him on everything... Smile
https://youtu.be/jdhBI-Pu-1c?t=29
AttnPls
View Profile
Special user
548 Posts

Profile of AttnPls
Interesting clip where Penn explains his approach to magic as "tricks and swindles". This is the exact opposite of how I approach my work.
Nerdy Wizard
View Profile
New user
Derby
86 Posts

Profile of Nerdy Wizard
Quote:
On Sep 14, 2016, solarpk wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 14, 2016, WitchDocChris wrote:
I would think Brown's performances are right up Penn's alley considering he outright states that he has no powers and is mixing magic and showmanship with genuine psychology. Brown's often pretty honest about what he's doing with his stage shows.


Oh, I am absolutely sure they agree with him on everything... Smile
https://youtu.be/jdhBI-Pu-1c?t=29


See I'd like to think they've said this in jest otherwise they're just contradicting themselves on a video that was posted earlier.
https://youtu.be/sQm3ZjZRpdo?t=1m40s

Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoy watching Derren but you can't say you agree with him on everything on one video and then say that people who claim psychological mastery are wrong to do so on another.

Or am I just expecting too much?
DrRob
View Profile
Special user
Middle Chinnock
922 Posts

Profile of DrRob
Quote:
On Sep 9, 2016, Alan Wheeler wrote:
Many magicians grow up to be Mentalists.

Many Mentalists grow up to be Real Readers.

Not a path everyone follows--as Penn & Teller prove--but, I'm guessing, it's a fairly common evolution.



Funny you should write this as Ive started on the path to real reading over the last week.
I like it becomes it (to me) can have such a strong and lasting effect on the spectator/sitter.

Dr Rob
Alan Wheeler
View Profile
Inner circle
Posting since 2002 with
2038 Posts

Profile of Alan Wheeler
I have been reading Devil May Care and Metaph-Oracle by Iain Dunford recently. These works do not so much set out a prescribed path to readings so much as provide blank map paper and a few examples of charting a course that is neither Psychic nor Psychological.

For most people, I think, neither the psychic nor the psychological premises are real--neither the star charts nor the ink blots. Stories, archetypes, symbols, imagery, and so much else can be real.

The analogue in magic tricks is an effect like the rice jar suspension. It may seem counter-intuitive and amazing, but it is a real phenomenon.

The views and comments expressed on this post may be mere speculation and are not necessarily the opinions, values, or beliefs of Alan Wheeler.
A BLENDED PATH
Christian Reflections on Tarot
Word Crimes
Technology and Faith........Bad Religion
solarpk
View Profile
New user
51 Posts

Profile of solarpk
Quote:
On Sep 15, 2016, Nerdy Wizard wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 14, 2016, solarpk wrote:
Quote:
On Sep 14, 2016, WitchDocChris wrote:
I would think Brown's performances are right up Penn's alley considering he outright states that he has no powers and is mixing magic and showmanship with genuine psychology. Brown's often pretty honest about what he's doing with his stage shows.


Oh, I am absolutely sure they agree with him on everything... Smile
https://youtu.be/jdhBI-Pu-1c?t=29


See I'd like to think they've said this in jest otherwise they're just contradicting themselves on a video that was posted earlier.
https://youtu.be/sQm3ZjZRpdo?t=1m40s

Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoy watching Derren but you can't say you agree with him on everything on one video and then say that people who claim psychological mastery are wrong to do so on another.

Or am I just expecting too much?


Derren: "I am often dishonest in my techniques, but always honest about my dishonesty."
Seemingly that's enough for Penn, i.e. an admission that it is not real. However, for me Derren still harnesses an ambiguity as to where 'ability' ends and 'tricks' begin. Indeed, a blanket disclaimer doesn't really seem in the spirit of disclosure that Penn alludes to.
Dr Spektor
View Profile
Eternal Order
Carcosa
10599 Posts

Profile of Dr Spektor
"I am a charlatan" said a great one.
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
solarpk
View Profile
New user
51 Posts

Profile of solarpk
Incidentally, I happened upon 'the ethics of mentalism' in The art of mentalism by Bob Cassidy.

It's certainly interesting to have his perspective, whereby he concludes that it is more a question of motivation, and the distinction here between magician / mentalist is moot.
E.E.
View Profile
Inner circle
1516 Posts

Profile of E.E.
Quote:
On Sep 16, 2016, solarpk wrote:
and the distinction here between magician / mentalist is moot.


No, not again! Smile
I shall see you on the other side.
Alan Wheeler
View Profile
Inner circle
Posting since 2002 with
2038 Posts

Profile of Alan Wheeler
Mystery performers have many different and distinct motivations, premises, claims, approaches...bizarre and mental, theatrical and real...

I'm not sure that Bob means that having different motivations renders any distinctions "moot" (merely academic with no practical application).
The views and comments expressed on this post may be mere speculation and are not necessarily the opinions, values, or beliefs of Alan Wheeler.
A BLENDED PATH
Christian Reflections on Tarot
Word Crimes
Technology and Faith........Bad Religion
solarpk
View Profile
New user
51 Posts

Profile of solarpk
Quote:
On Sep 17, 2016, Alan Wheeler wrote:
Mystery performers have many different and distinct motivations, premises, claims, approaches...bizarre and mental, theatrical and real...

I'm not sure that Bob means that having different motivations renders any distinctions "moot" (merely academic with no practical application).


"There are many individuals, particularly magicians, who believe that mentalism is wrong because it fosters a false world view. But, if you think about it, so does the magician who claims that "the hand is quicker than the eye." It is not, and to create the idea that it is also engenders a false view of reality."..."The ethical question really goes to the individual's underlying motivation." B. Cassidy

It is more that in this context there is surely no reason to differentiate between mentalist and magician since both construct a false image of reality in the same context of entertainment. The question of motivation then provides a mechanism for distinguishing between, say, entertainer and fraudulent psychic.
solarpk
View Profile
New user
51 Posts

Profile of solarpk
Cassidy also says:

"To say that [mentalism] creates a false world view is to state conclusively that paranormal avenues of communication simply do not exist or, at least, that the performer is creating a false impression about his own abilities."..."...until there is positive evidence that the paranormal phenomena imitated by mentalists do not exist, the claim that the psychic entertainer creates a false world view is unsupportable."

I think this is interesting because an extrapolation would be that magicians are worse offenders than mentalists because it is seemingly more likely that some form of psychic ability exists, all be it as yet not understood by science, whereas very few people continue to claim to have genuine magical powers. However, this falls foul of being unable to reject the null hypothesis in either case and is likely to be a controversial and largely unhelpful position.
solarpk
View Profile
New user
51 Posts

Profile of solarpk
Of course, regardless, you can tell people the truth, but without a strong alternative explanation many will believe what they want anyway.
https://youtu.be/z8wvVAkoJTY?t=433
Stevious
View Profile
New user
Poland
80 Posts

Profile of Stevious
Quote:
On Sep 18, 2016, solarpk wrote:
Of course, regardless, you can tell people the truth, but without a strong alternative explanation many will believe what they want anyway.
https://youtu.be/z8wvVAkoJTY?t=433


In this video Clare's point of view is perfectly understandable for me. I like to delude myself that top mentalists have indeed some mysterious psychological skills. Maybe they have? If you duplicate drawings for hundreds of times you might have some sort of intuition, similarly expierienced cold readers will be able to guess more about you.

When I cannot explain magic/mental trick, and I have no desire of performing it myself, I just leave it that way, as - magic/mystery.
miistermagico
View Profile
Regular user
154 Posts

Profile of miistermagico
Folie a Deux
Djin
View Profile
Regular user
158 Posts

Profile of Djin
Penn is also a vociferous atheist. He seems to take positions to the effect of "I don't believe in anything beyond the proven physical world, so no one else should either." I think that he lumps all belief in anything other than cold hard science into the realm of superstition.

Frankly, everyone has a right to their own beliefs. That includes sceptics just as much as it includes the religious faithful. That said, I find it just as annoying to be preached at by the likes of Penn and Randi as I do to have door to door pitches for my soul from the various denominations that roam the bible belt (I live in the South, it's just part of life.) In fact I find the aggressive atheists to be more pushy in general. (I always give the Jehovah's Witnesses and 7th Day Adventists a few moments of my time as a common courtesy. Just because I'm not going to convert is no reason to be rude.) When you say thanks but no thanks to them, they generally politely move on. Tell an "evangelical athiest" anything other than what he thinks he knows is true and he's loudly and relentlessly calling you an idiot.

I do think that Penn (and Randi before him) are bad for mentalism. I think that the well pitched and widely distributed anti mentalism message erodes the public's willingness to suspend disbelief for the few moments it takes to enjoy a show. Likewise, the public becomes less willing to open up to the help that a reader may bring them.

Mentalists create effects... and the audience experiences magic. The feeling within a person who experiences a well performed mentalist's effect is nothing short of truly magical. By crapping on mentalism, magicians are making the world a less magical place.
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Penn & Teller VS Mentalism (36 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2021 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.18 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL