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Xia
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If any of you have read my posts, then you will understand that I think Mr. Rowland is not only a genius, but also a "correct" thinking man as far as ethics and morals go.
I am fed up of him constantly being put down everytime he posts, because of some old grudge regarding exposure.
Therefore I have opened this new topic so as you can all bash Ian over the head with your words.
One condition, if you do feel that you need to say something about him which has nothing to do with the topic in question then post it here!!
I see a topic named "Derren Brown" and Ian puts a well written reply to a well asked question and out of the blue comes... "but you're the masked magician of mentalsim..." YAWN!!

So here it is: your very own Rowland bashing board. Now you can stop tainting other topics with the dreary washed out exposure argument.

Cheers
M. Xia
"They say time is money...i say time is precious"
"They say the whole is much more than the sum of its Parts...Thats why a man is much more than the sum of his Past!"
Nir Dahan
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Xia,

I am with you - I think all the bashing going on here on Mr. Rowland are completely unjustified.
Moreover, as you mentioned, they come up as a response to each post he makes.
I don't know Ian Rowland personally, and I don't think he needs my defense anyway, but this is becoming too much sometimes.

N
enriqueenriquez
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I couldn’t agree more.
Fon
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Here, Here,

Fon
Always thinking..........?
Colin
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I too couldn't agree more. Mr Rowland is fantastic and I don't feel deserves any of this here.

Colin
Check out Psych-Artist.com now for free essays and other resources.
O Brien
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Xia,

I find it quite amusing that you've started an Ian bashing board, yet none of the posts here, including your initial one, "bashes" Ian! So I guess I'll start by saying that if the subject was the masked magician, I don't think you'd be quite as supportive.

For the record, Ian's exposure does not hurt me personally. I don't worry about it. However, I am VERY uncomfortable discussing information and secrets on a board with a gentleman who "ethically" feels it's OK to expose those secrets to the public!

Finally, if you know anything about this board, you know that these types of threads are not the kind Steve Brooks likes to see. You may be reading my post now, but I doubt you'll be able to read it by the week's end!
DaveS
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Thanks for posting this, Xia... I don't know Ian personally, but I am indebted to his many contributions to the Magic Café's mentalism forums and have learned much from his postings and his books. IMHO, it would be a loss to this Café if Ian should decide that participating here isn't worth putting up with unceasing abuse from a small but dedicated group of people who deny they have a vendetta against him. I am saddened that his tour of the east coast of the USA was cancelled as I was looking forward to seeing him lecture. I have taken the liberty of reprinting below a couple of paragraphs from Ian's web site on this subject. I expect that his accusers will jump in here shortly, things will take their usual nasty turn and this thread will be removed before too long (sighhhhh.....)
DaveS
_____________________________________________
The following is from Ian Rowland's web site:
"In April I was supposed to be giving a lecture tour on the US East Coast. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your point of view, this isn't going to happen. The vocal minority of people who hold the sincere, passionate and yet misguided view that 'Ian is a magic exposer' contacted some of the magic traders and organisations who were participating (e.g. hosting or sponsoring a lecture) and made various threats. So people pulled out, so the tour wasn't viable any more, so it's been cancelled.

This is no great loss and doesn't matter much either way, but in one sense it's a shame. If some people don't want to see me perform or lecture they can ignore me and stay away (as millions do!). But by making sure the lecture never happens, they ensure that other magicians, who might actually want to see my lecture, never even get the chance to make up their own mind. I think it's a shame when people seek to impose their view on others in this way. I respect the sincerity and passion of those concerned, but they are wrong about me nonetheless. Love and peace to them, may they one day learn to find me as a friend and not as an enemy, which I refuse to be to them or to anyone else".
We shall not cease from exploration/And the end of all our exploring/Will be to arrive where we started/And know the place for the first time. (TS Elliot)
Xia
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First let me thank you all for your suport of my initial post.

For anyone who wishes to post here regarding

"a gentleman who "ethically" feels it's OK to expose those secrets to the public"

I would advise that you go to http://www.ianrowland.com and if you can access the Magicians Only area do so. Then read the Exposure article that Mr. Rowland has put up there, then if you wish you can come back here and continue your bashing, I doubt you will though as the article is so well thought out and written that there are no faults in it.

I am glad no one here wants to bash Ian, you see, I was being ironic (a quaint English characteristic). And if this was a topic on the masked magician I wouldn't be taking part as I have no respect for the masked magician and people who I do not respect don't deserve my time or energy.

Matthew Xia.
"They say time is money...i say time is precious"
"They say the whole is much more than the sum of its Parts...Thats why a man is much more than the sum of his Past!"
eebie376
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That ticks me off a lot. I live on the East Coast and would very much have liked to see Ian Rowland lecture.

Masked Magician of Mentalism my *&@#. ANYONE who says that needs to do a little more research, and think of what he has contributed to mentalism first. (Read his article!)

Ian

P.s.- Having the same name has nothing to do with it , although it is pretty cool Smile
DaveS
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Xia,
Thanks for posting the reference to the exposure section of Ian Rowland's web site. I suspect his most dedicated detractors -- who are convinced they're right and that their position is the sole "truth" -- will still find plenty to take issue with. They're certainly entitled to their opinions and the right to express them. I think forum members with an open mind who have read Rowland's response to the exposure allegations will weigh his detractors' (assuming they bother to weigh in at all) responses carefully concerning personal attack vs. articulate, informed, well-reasoned discussion.
DaveS
We shall not cease from exploration/And the end of all our exploring/Will be to arrive where we started/And know the place for the first time. (TS Elliot)
xanatos
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VERY, VERY sorry to hear Ian will not be coming to the East Coast. I for one was planning to see his presentation anywhere within a 4 hour drive of my home- Boston, NYC, ...

What a shame that there are folks who feel it's their duty to put the shebotz to other people's right to learn from a source that is willing to travel to make that happen. Ian does what he does, and I would say he contributes to the CR/Mentalism field far more than any amount of revelation takes from it. I've been seeing this argument for years and years, and I have personal experience of knowing people who have watched exposure shows, and not even three months later having an "exposed" effect absolutely blow them away... Exposure has a time-retention value of virtually zip. Astonishment lasts a lifetime.

Ian Rowland, if you're reading this, remember that it's only a vocal MINORITY that causes the problems. If you ever want to do an East Coast USA tour again, let the guys who WANT you here know where you will be going first, so we can outmuscle they guys who want to spoil it for everyone else! I know how to BRING more business to your venues than the other guys can ever take away!

Dave
nimrod
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If a person thinks Ian is an exposer of mentalism it is his right (and even obligation) to try preventing him from lecturing/performing in his area/country. We should fight exposers of our art in any way we can.
By the way, after reading Ian's article (but not watching his tv appearances) I think we should give this guy a rest. He wasn't an exposer and he isn't one now. I must admit that I don't even agree with Ian when he says he regrets some of the stuff he did; he shouldn't. Exposing cold reading is a mitsva. I know some of you make money from it, but millions of people lose money to it, and even worse.
There is a right way and wrong way to do an exposure, and judging from Ian's description (in the article) I don't think he crossed the line.

Nimrod

P.S. If Ian is guilty, Penn & Teller should be on the death row... ;-)
Harry H
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I saw the actual show where Ian "exposed" the well written about secrets. Look at the context of the show, it was about Psychics and Paranormal feats; the fact magicians/mentalists use these methods is irrelevant I feel. Penn & Teller get tarred with the exposure brush for cups an balls..how many laypeople do you see doing it. Run toward exposure, as I feel it isn't going away. Ian Rowland's show was a long time ago and may have been sold to him as something toally different. There...take that.
enriqueenriquez
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I don’t like fundamentalists.

If you don’t want to see Ian Rowland, Madonna or The Ringling Bros, just skip it. Don’t try to force me to follow your opinions and don’t think you can represent me or even “open my eyes,” doesn’t matter how “saintly” you think your “crusade” is.

Self appointed prophets are as bad in magic as in politics or religion.
MisterE21
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I've just finished reading Ian's pages regarding the so-called exposure. I never really did the feel the man was an exposer but, dangit, even if you feel he WAS you ought to take a rational look at those pages, the information contained therein and move on.

The P&T comparison is interesting, though it was only really related to the Cups & Balls. In their Showtime series Bullsh*t, they did a sort-of expose' on fake psychics. I don't really remember the level of exposure contained therein, but they certainly weren't supportive of fake psychic readers!

Finally, I still disagree and probably will always disagree with the Ethical Crusade notion of "warning and protecting the public at large." I've written in great length and detail on it and see no reason to back into it in a thread that probably won't exist by the weekend! If you're interested in discussing it with me, contact me via PM.

E
Your EFFECT is only as good as its AFFECT.
JudgeBean
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Didn't Houdini debunk the con artists?
And yup, wasn't popular with the con artists to do that either.
Seems like Ian is in good magical historical company.
(Lordy that was a loopy statement!)
Finally, there is a time and place for everything
and when Ian speaks or says something is it the time and place to rag on him? If you don't like him, fine and dandy, but be a professional let it go.

JudgeBean
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Ian, to his credit (or brilliance) has responded to his detractors in a very intelligent and courteous manner. I give him credit for that. He has certainly come up with a convincing rationalisation to justify his actions.

How many of you have actually seen the "Unmasked" special? In the opinion of many professionals who have seen the show, it was exposure.

Does using a less practical or common method make it legitimate? If a magic special featured a magician doing an "impractical" card force would that be okay? Could it be that simply planting the idea that the card is forced by "some sort of move" be sufficient to damage the illusion and performance of a skilled card worker?

If someone takes a small amount of change from you without your knowledge, is it theft? Or does it only become theft if it's a larger sum of money?

You can justify exposure to protect the gullible. You can debate the damage or extent of the exposure if you must. None of these arguments and rationalisations can change the exposure into something else.

Even in the grey areas, we must choose which side we are on.
chicagoman
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Before I get too long-winded (which I hope
won't happen) I just wanted to reprint from Ian's site what he said and which I feel says it all:

"This is what I did not realise [that magicians consider what he did was exposing], and was not aware of, when I took part in the TV shows mentioned in these pages. Today, I do realise it, and I am aware of it. This is why I will never again explain any methods via any broadcast media."

I am one that did consider what he did was exposure, but I can see after numerous apologies from him, that he admits he was in error and that he has learned alot from this experience. That's incredibly big of him especially considering the amazing talent he is as a performer (I saw him on the Holloween special, and he was brilliant.)

-----

Haven't read most of what he wrote, though, I was taken by the amount of magician's guilt he and I'm sure many others have, regarding performing like they really have magical abilities.

I firmly believe that audiences want to see a show about "real psychic powers"--why would they want to see fake demonstrations?

It's a show for crying out loud! It's suppose to transport the audience into a realm of the imagination--it's shouldn't be a science fair.

When magicians believe it's just tricks (much less say it) it translates to the audience as "look at me--look how clever I am". There's nothing in it for the audience; the audience can't really be engaged, they would be too busy trying to see how you're going to fool them.

Magicians have become too skeptical IMO and as result they look more like "tricksters" rather than magi. If magic is an art, then does it not deserve more devotion than just learning "a really fast pass".

CM
JamesCheung
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Humans will always seek to discover that which they do not know. It is an essential and inescapable facet of the human psyche that has elevated us to being the dominant species on this planet. By virtue of this very fact, laypeople will always seek to discover the secrets to how we perform our feats. And as futile as it is to think we can hold back time, it is also futile in this case to think we can guard the secrets to mentalism indefinitely. Mentalism secrets will get out one way or another and instead of whining on about it, we should accept that this will happen and devise ways of limiting the damage that this will cause.

There is nothing to prevent a TV producer with a few hundred dollars going into a dealer and purchasing pretty much everything within the mentalism section and exposing it on a TV special hosted by Mr Mitch Pelleggi.

Ian Rowland has the foresight to pre-empt this from happening. By drip feeding the public little morsels from our repository of secrets he has effectively taken control of the exposure process and has given the public enough to sate them without damaging the integrity of the secret knowledge we all hold so dear. I would much rather Ian, someone within our community who cares about and values the art, be doing this rather than a sensationalist Tv producer who only cares about ratings and personal glory. I applaud Ian and I only wish that there were more like him within our art who share his honour, foresight and pragmatism.
landmark
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Hmm . . . not sure I buy the theory that Rowland was doing the mentalism world a favor, but on the other hand,

Brash wrote:

<<Even in the grey areas, we must choose which side we are on>>

Why? Why can't we agree that grey areas are grey areas, and that both sides of the debate have merit?

Rowland has given both a reasonable apology and explanation on his website. He has said he will never do anything like it again. What more can you ask of the man? Is he supposed to do a strip tease? Isn't it time to move on with this? How long is his "punishment" supposed to last?

I believe that Rowland was wrong. I believe that this continued bashing after a reasonable apology and explanation is also wrong.

Jack "Grey Area" Shalom
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