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Jerry Inner circle Some where in Florida 1402 Posts |
Found this article I believe you may be interested in.
I love this topic and will read anything concerning it. Please share if you know of any others. http://www.historynet.com/gambling-in-the-old-west.htm |
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MVFAN Regular user 126 Posts |
Good article. Have you checked out the author's excellent book "Knights of the Green Cloth"? Also my favorite book on the subject is "Frontier Gambling" by G.R. Williamson. Both books are on Amazon.
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Jerry Inner circle Some where in Florida 1402 Posts |
I have the Knights in hardback edition, I was not aware of the second book.
Thanks. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Jerry Inner circle Some where in Florida 1402 Posts |
Here are some fictional movie examples of the old west gambling.
"The Mississippi Gambler" The last eight minutes are missing from an otherwise excellent copy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3O9gyBkt_8 Watch Trinity play poker: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J78J-6PbhVo |
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts |
Yes, there is a great appeal to the old west and gambling on the riverboats and in saloons. Greatly romanticized but fun to watch. The "Trinity" footage is hilarious.
The closest I came to seeing "old west" gambling was as a young man watching the Faro game at the original Las Vegas Club on Fremont Street circa the mid-1960s. Old timers, bosses, rounders, hustlers and the like, all huddled around the Faro table, a scene out of the movies -- only real in this instance. No hooting and hollering at that game - just serious gambling. For those who might be interested, here is the link to the post on that Faro game. http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......87398#10 |
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MVFAN Regular user 126 Posts |
The game that Hollywood seems to get wrong most of the time is Three Card Monte. I have seen the money card switched out and dropped to the ground, lapped or palmed as is shown in the opening scene of the Mississippi Gambler. It would be nice to see on the big screen how the game is really played.
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 14, 2016, MVFAN wrote: I believe there is another way to look at this. The purpose of a Big Screen "story" is usually to show chicanery occurred so that even the most unobservant and uninformed can follow the story line. It is not mean to be an expose but rather to entertain. If three card monte were professionally performed by an adept, no one but a knowledgeable person would know what was happening and even they would not be able to follow it. I don't think a real exposure would be of benefit to anyone as far as enhancing their enjoyment of the movie. If it were not obvious and simple to understand, many would not get the full "flavor" that chicanery were occurring and as such is meant to enhance the story. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
The saloon we have in town would make a cool gambling parlour but the licencing laws will not allow it. The other day we rented an apartment above the saloon and we could set up a nice little Wild West amateur game in it. Perhaps we could also have a little chuck game there. It’s only a small apartment but we have a five foot round table which will seat seven or eight and fit. There are a few champagne Charlie’s at the saloon who might be interested in a little after dinner fun. I also have a jean jacket and Stetson hat somewhere.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Jerry Inner circle Some where in Florida 1402 Posts |
May be you could use fake currency or, wait, POKER CHIPS! That can be redeemed for food and beverages.
Have special gaming nights where all proceeds go to charity. Or just have cards and poker chips on hand for friendly games with no real money is involved. Like having a dart board or pool table. I sure alternatives can be put in place. Just a thought. |
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Jerry Inner circle Some where in Florida 1402 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 6, 2016, MVFAN wrote: Got "Frontier Gambling" and it is a really good book. I went straight to chapter nine - Card Sharps and Con Men. I believe the longest chapter is on HONEST card players! |
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JasonEngland V.I.P. Las Vegas, NV 1728 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 14, 2016, Cagliostro wrote: What are you referring to when you say "following" it? Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 15, 2016, JasonEngland wrote: The mechanics of how the observer is being cheated i.e. the Hype. Having the cheat with a card in his hand is more dramatic and easier to understand than trying to do an exposed of the move. Of course, that is just my opinion and evidently the opinion of those that make movies where cheating is apparently demonstrated in card or poker games that I have seen. It is not very subtle nor meant to be subtle. |
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Artie Fufkin Special user 853 Posts |
I've always viewed the mechanics of the Monte as almost an afterthought to the actual con.
Granted, you couldn't operate the way the Monte has historically be operated without the mechanics, but I've always viewed the social engineering as a far more devious element of the Monte. There are lots of folks I know, supposedly knowledgable about such things, who really have little or no understanding of how the Monte really works. Getting the flatie's attention, getting him into the game, getting him to get his money out, and then making him think he's part of some "gambling" game of chance where everybody's having a hella' great time! ... therein lies the genius of the Monte (and the shells for that matter). IMO, a well orchestrated Monte is actually too complex for that average guy on the street to possibly figure out ... even guys who think they know about the "bent corner", and other such distractions from what's really going on in order to separate you from the cheese in your wallet often have little or no idea that there is a complex social engineering project underway as their cash steadily vanishes - only to have the game then vanish before they can even wonder what just happened! Indeed, historically showing a flat the bent corner has nothing to do with any "mechanics" of the con, but is yet another layer of the social engineering taking place. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
A knew a professional crew who worked it as a con by way of showing a mark how it worked and getting him to finance the game to take somebody else who in reality was on the firm.
The crew were not cowboys but Indians as were the marks but Sikhs; the ones with the black turbans are the ones with the money as I recall.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 15, 2016, Artie Fufkin wrote: And this is one example of the application of Grift Sense, the tail that wags the dog in all type of hustling. I have alluded to this concept a number of times on this BB knowing that most don't truly comprehend the vast difference between the "moves" they love to watch and talk about and the actual mechanics of separating the rabbits from their money regardless of the game being played. Because most demonstrators, magicians and hobbyists learn moves by watching video tapes of them being performed, or by reading books, they mistakenly think the move (and also how skillfully it is performed), is the be all and end all of the play. Moves are usually the least important part of serious or professional plays but for those who have never been there it is incomprehensible that these wonderful moves they revere usually mean very little without the rest of the "grift." Showing off moves is important for demonstrators because what they do is a performance in a make-believe and unrealistic environment, often taking a video of the move on a close up pad with them sitting at their kitchen table. Most to the time they tell their audience they are doing a move, like dealing seconds, and their performance is really to show how well they can execute the move they just exposed. The implication that they can get the money with their demonstration is really the show biz part of their presentation. Contrast this to a serious game with very observant players where you are trying to cheat with your magic move. Anyone thinks there is any comparison between the two situations is very naive, has never been there and really does not have a clue of what getting the money is all about. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
There are people who show off skills with cards and there are magicians who call them jugglers. In contrast to a juggler the magician performs magic with no apparent skill.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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JasonEngland V.I.P. Las Vegas, NV 1728 Posts |
Cag,
I consider myself a "knowledgeable person" regarding Monte. Are you suggesting that if "an adept" were tossing the cards that I couldn't follow the money card? That seems to be what you're saying. If so, I respectfully disagree. Or do you consider me more advanced than merely "knowledgeable?" For while I agree that I would never get paid (that is the real secret of 3-Card Monte - having multiple ways to get out of booking/paying a winning wager), I usually have zero difficulty in following the card itself. And I'm not talking about magicians routines here, I'm talking about the guys in front of Caesars last week, a half-dozen other crews in Vegas over the past 10 years, the guys at Pier 39 in San Francisco, three different crews in NYC in the 5 times I've visited, and crews in London, Istanbul, Madrid, and Rio. I've seen shell games with bottle caps, matchboxes and actual shells and Monte with both cards and discs. Never had any trouble following the money card (or pea) - with the exception of the first time I saw the matchbox "flash" move. I loved the move so much I kept watching it trying to learn it and didn't bother to follow the pea. Just trying to determine why you think a knowledgeable person can't follow the card. They can. But they still can't get paid. Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts |
Jason,
Perhaps I was not clear as to what I said or meant. What I said was was the mechanics of how the observer is being cheated i.e. the hype, is too subtle. Having the cheat with a card in his hand is more dramatic and easier to understand than trying to do an expose of the move. I was referring to MVFAN's comment that Hollywood mostly gets it wrong. My contention was they don't get it wrong as their purpose is to entertain by being obvious to all observers and that if a subtle move were used very few would be able to follow and therefore not be entertained. Hopefully this clarifies my statement further. Whether a knowledgeable observer could follow the card in a live real time game is another story. They don't make movies for a small percentage of knowledgeable observers. That would defeat their purpose. However, you are correct; it doesn't matter as the observer will never get paid. Under fire, one does not get points for standing back from the game and being correct, only by playing the game and getting paid. By the way, I was the one tossing the boards in front of Caesars. I waved and gave you the "office" to come in. We have to have an occasional winner and I was going to give you a "courtesy" pay-off. (Of course, you would have to pay me back after the game, less your 10% commission.) |
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts |
I should add to my post immediately above. The "grift" of a live action game is one can't get paid, as Jason said. The move is of secondary importance and so whether someone catches it or not really does not matter.
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