We Remember The Magic Café We Remember
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Latest and Greatest? » » Karuna by Ross Tayler (18 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3 [Next]
Ross Tayler
View Profile
Regular user
Rugby, England
127 Posts

Profile of Ross Tayler
I don't think anything about my response was particularly "touchy", Martin. I'm certainly not upset by your comments, just a little baffled. Be assured that I feel in no sense touched.

I'll try to clarify my approach for you, Martin. I think mentalism is about more than "getting hits". Whilst that forms an important part of the picture, in the way I want to perform it is only a part. I'm far more interested in having magical-feeling conversations with people. Sometimes that'll involve revelations of thoughts, sometimes just a reading, sometimes demonstrations of suggestion - sometimes an amalgamation of these. So when any particular aspect misses, it's not shattering the whole picture. Hopefully in reading the routine as laid out, you understood that the context of the routine was not: "And for my next trick, I shall attempt to pluck a thought from betwixt your ears and insert it into my third eye", but rather that (as I think is quite clearly explained) the name guess emerges naturally out of the flow of the performance, and is not necessarily even expected by the spectator. It hits big if successful and is brushed over if not. Unfortunately if this isn't something you can envisage in your performance you're not going to enjoy the work, but then given your comments elsewhere on the Café pertaining to mine and Fraser's prior releases, you'd have known this to be the case before purchasing.

As for the name, I don't think anyone is surprised that your "challenge name" has not been guessed. I could go through every permutation of Jerome and Jordan and Jagoda and still I doubt you'd lay claim to any in particular. The only claim I'm making (and forgive me if all these caveats were not present in the text, most of my readership are accustomed to the ideas) is that with the information you mentioned, in most cases you have a good chance of guessing the name, and even if you miss you'll generally be close. For the way in which I perform that is sufficient. Not everyone performs like me and that is fine. My final word on this point would be to reiterate that you're being disingenuous in this criticism, because as Adrien mentioned the primary name guess taught (as opposed to the throw away handling you're referencing) provides far more information than that which we're discussing.

When I refer to using a deck of cards in that way, I'm pointing out that I'm perfectly capable of performing magic which is all about how clever and skilful I am, with loads of big tada effects and no risk of anything ever going wrong. And sometimes that's fun. But it's not the subject of this book. What I was not saying is that cards cannot be used in mentalism. At no point have I said that, and in fact I know you saw me say this exactly in the Abyss thread recently. At this point I must ask if you're just looking for everything possible with which you can disagree, just because you love a tussle, and it is that attitude to which I'm referring when using the expression "trash talk".

It'd be really great if this didn't just turn into another day on the forums, where people talk smack at each other for the hell of it. I think you might have something useful to say for a particular section of performers who simply will not like it because it doesn't fit their style. I think that's a really valid point, and I recognise that the readership for this work is limited. But it has a readership, and that's because we each have unique approaches, which work for us. I sincerely hope I've helped clarify the things you didn't understand regarding my approach or my wording. I'm totally happy with people not getting involved in this project if it's not for them, but the furthest thing Karuna was ever intended to be was another source of negativity.

Best wishes,

Ross.
Ross Tayler
View Profile
Regular user
Rugby, England
127 Posts

Profile of Ross Tayler
Magicowner, I can assure you that nothing on my website has changed since the posting of this thread.
magicowner
View Profile
Regular user
Los Angeles
115 Posts

Profile of magicowner
I want to believe you. Where is the language that I had previously read on your website and that is referenced by the original poster of this thread? Specifically, you had claimed there is NO process to reveal highly personal information. That claim is no longer there.

Quote:
On Oct 19, 2016, Ross Tayler wrote:
Magicowner, I can assure you that nothing on my website has changed since the posting of this thread.
Ross Tayler
View Profile
Regular user
Rugby, England
127 Posts

Profile of Ross Tayler
Firstly, a quick thanks to Pete for his comments. I fully agree with what he says regarding for whom this material will be suitable, so use that as a guide if you're considering purchasing.

magicowner the ad copy to which you are referring is on the "Shop" page of my website. It is a truncated version of the ad copy from the main Karuna page, and this includes the comment pertaining to process. This is still there, and nothing has changed on the original page. I'm afraid you've been mistaken.

That said I stand by the statement that there's methods of revealing particular types of information which are devoid of process. That is to say that between the spectator thinking of the thing and us revealing it, there is no procedure the performer or participant must go through in order for us to divine the information. Why you make such outright claims having not read the book, contrary to the opinion of an objective and respectable third party who has read the book, I'm afraid I can't even guess at.

Glad to have cleared that up.

Best wishes,

Ross.
Martin Pulman
View Profile
Inner circle
London
3054 Posts

Profile of Martin Pulman
Ross, I hope that you feel mentalism is an art form that is worth taking seriously? I don't think it is any less an art form than music or theatre of cinema or literature or the visual arts. I place it several rungs higher than plate spinning. As such, if you release a product and charge money for it you have invited comment and criticism. And no, that criticism does not have to be positive or even constructive. It would be absurd for George Lucas to start arguing with film critics and people btl on IMDB just because they thought Jar Jar Blinks was an insult to the original Star Wars.

I also think it is a mistake -though doubtless a comforting one - to assume that those who are critical of your material are more interested in sponge balls or are somehow so bereft of intelligence that they are not able to "understand' your work. It's hardly James Joyce we're talking about here.

I suspect those buying your work are interested in psychological mentalism. My heroes are Chan Canasta and Uri Geller. I have been pursuing the idea of informal psychological mentalism in my own cack-handed way for a relatively long time. I'm wide open to new ideas. I remember when Derren Brown performed his International lecture that many people at the event were openly hostile to what he was attempting. Personally it was then, and remains now, the greatest Mentalism experience I've ever had. I will never be able to describe to you the thrill of watching him perform Reminiscence and Lift to a somewhat truculent audience, most of whom had no idea what was coming next. Paradigms were certainly shifted that night. So I am personally not commenting on your work in comparison to classical mentalism stage techniques. I am commenting on it compared to the works of people who have released or performed material in the psychological genre: Berglas, Canasta, Shaw,Rowland, Jermay, Turner. So far I haven't found your material has reached anywhere near that level. (although I have enjoyed reading and listening to much of it and have enormous respect for your choice to donate your profits from this to homeless people.) I note, however, that Peter Turner believes your upcoming work is a masterpiece, and I truly consider him to be a genius, so I know if I was a mentalist selling material I'd rather have a quote from Peter than from random Magic Café members.

The Café should be a place to discuss mentalism openly and honestly. If products are released with huge price tags (your new book with Fraser is the same price I paid for the life's work of David Berglas) and earth-shattering hype about changing the paradigm and changing the way people perform forever, I see no problem in reviews meeting the product on the same terms. And if that means the reviews are harsh, well, maybe there truly is no such thing as bad publicity. I remember buying Albert Goldman's biography of John Lennon when it came out and the quote proudly displayed on the cover was "TRASH!" -Paul McCartney. Maybe you should wear your bad reviews as a badge of honour. It may indeed mean you are shifting the paradigm and your critics are simply too dumb to realise it.

PS. You've now had seven guesses at the name and they are all wrong. And I haven't changed it to suit. So we perhaps can at least agree that the idea you only need a first letter and an approximate amount of letters to divine a name is, at least, debatable, rather than "generally accepted"?
magicowner
View Profile
Regular user
Los Angeles
115 Posts

Profile of magicowner
I am utterly confused. What is your definition of process?

Quote:
On Oct 19, 2016, Ross Tayler wrote:
Firstly, a quick thanks to Pete for his comments. I fully agree with what he says regarding for whom this material will be suitable, so use that as a guide if you're considering purchasing.

magicowner the ad copy to which you are referring is on the "Shop" page of my website. It is a truncated version of the ad copy from the main Karuna page, and this includes the comment pertaining to process. This is still there, and nothing has changed on the original page. I'm afraid you've been mistaken.

That said I stand by the statement that there's methods of revealing particular types of information which are devoid of process. That is to say that between the spectator thinking of the thing and us revealing it, there is no procedure the performer or participant must go through in order for us to divine the information. Why you make such outright claims having not read the book, contrary to the opinion of an objective and respectable third party who has read the book, I'm afraid I can't even guess at.

Glad to have cleared that up.

Best wishes,

Ross.
Adrien L.
View Profile
Elite user
477 Posts

Profile of Adrien L.
Man, this is tiresome... wouldn't this be a nicer conversation if, instead of being clearly aggressive, someone simply wrote "I don't agree that with the first letter of a name and his approximate number of letter, one could guess a thought of name" and someone else said "does it really need NO PROCESS? I find that hard to believe" Smile Both points would have been made and we would not go into this whole semantics battle that clearly takes us nowhere...

Yes, most times you need more than just a the first letter, gender and number of letter to guess the exact name. That point has been made and, I think, agreed on by everyone. Since the method in this book gives you more than that, can we move on?

As for the process question, which I think is perfectly valid, but could have been asked in a less agressive way... I will try to really answer... I would say that, everything you reveal BUT the name has the same "process" as a psy force would have... "think of a number from ONE to TEN. Are you thinking of 7? YES!" if this is a process to you, then yes, Karuna has a process Smile

Now, Martin, hit me with all your might. I'm ready Smile
Martin Pulman
View Profile
Inner circle
London
3054 Posts

Profile of Martin Pulman
I'm not being remotely aggressive. I'm being critical of heavily hyped material. You seem to feel the name guess here is "great". I think it's extremely poor. We simply have wildly contrasting opinions. I hope others will give their honest opinions on this provocative work.
Adrien L.
View Profile
Elite user
477 Posts

Profile of Adrien L.
Instead of simply voicing your opinion, you turned it into a challenge, and that seemed aggressive to me. I'm not a native english speaker, so I'm sorry to have misread your tone.

But now we're talking Smile The name guess on this ebook... you think it's risible and I surely understand your point of view. I haven't tried it yet, so I can't really know how well it goes on performance. But what I TRIED to say in my first post was that I don't feel I would stand a chance with this method if I went "ok, so, I'm going to guess a name you're thinking". This, as many of Ross' and Fraser's works, in my opinion, works best in the context of a reading or, at least, with a "let's try something out of the ordinary" approach. For me, that's perfect. For many it will suck. Such is life Smile

I think that if someone liked Ouija, Sync, Rose or False Messiah, they will like this method. If those works didn't do anything for you, I think this probably won't either. Do you agree?
IAIN
View Profile
Eternal Order
england
18822 Posts

Profile of IAIN
...just to be clear, did James Joyce release some mentalism?...
I've asked to be banned
magicowner
View Profile
Regular user
Los Angeles
115 Posts

Profile of magicowner
I apologize if my factual statement came across aggressively. That was not the intention; however, the fact still stands that you cannot reveal highly personal information with NO PROCESS.

I truly thank you for acknowledging this. Even a psy force has a process---you have to try to get the spectator to do something! It's not just..."think of any word in the English dictionary."...and then the next second, "The word is PROCESS".

No, it doesn't work that way! I encourage Ross to understand the true meaning of PROCESS, and I suggest him to change the deceptive ad-copy. Forget me, if his loyal customers like Adrien acknowledge the existence of a process, he should listen to them!

Quote:
On Oct 19, 2016, Adrien L. wrote:
Man, this is tiresome... wouldn't this be a nicer conversation if, instead of being clearly aggressive, someone simply wrote "I don't agree that with the first letter of a name and his approximate number of letter, one could guess a thought of name" and someone else said "does it really need NO PROCESS? I find that hard to believe" Smile Both points would have been made and we would not go into this whole semantics battle that clearly takes us nowhere...

Yes, most times you need more than just a the first letter, gender and number of letter to guess the exact name. That point has been made and, I think, agreed on by everyone. Since the method in this book gives you more than that, can we move on?

As for the process question, which I think is perfectly valid, but could have been asked in a less agressive way... I will try to really answer... I would say that, everything you reveal BUT the name has the same "process" as a psy force would have... "think of a number from ONE to TEN. Are you thinking of 7? YES!" if this is a process to you, then yes, Karuna has a process Smile

Now, Martin, hit me with all your might. I'm ready Smile
MadisonH
View Profile
Inner circle
1463 Posts

Profile of MadisonH
Magicowner:

You're doing a great job at trolling. Let me give you an example of the highly personal information that can be revealed with NO PROCESS.

The psychic is giving a reading. As they are giving this reading they say, "I'm getting the impression of an animal in your life. I'm fairly certain you have a pet, correct?" They say they do indeed have a pet. "And this is a dog isn't it?" They say yes.

Ross teaches you how to do exactly what I said above. There is literally no process of the spectator. The comparison to a psy force is bad because in Ross's work, you literally never ask them to do anything. You don't even ask them to think of something. You just know.

It's more like Sherlock Holmes. Sherlock Holmes looks for clues. Essentially, Ross provides you ways to look for clues to know information about people's personal life. So yes, you look for clues, but no, there is absolutely no process the spectator must go through.
If you enjoy my thoughts on the cafe, please consider donating a coffee at the link.
https://ko-fi.com/madisonhagler
magicowner
View Profile
Regular user
Los Angeles
115 Posts

Profile of magicowner
Thank you, MagicMaddy. There is a process for the performer. Whether that process occurs before, during, or after the effect (and with or without the spectator in presence) is a separate point.

I am glad you are enjoying Karuna. Keep enjoying it and don't forget there is another ($150?) ebook coming out from Ross and Fraser in Jan 2017 Smile And then, likely another few after that Smile



Quote:
On Oct 19, 2016, MadisonH wrote:
Magicowner:

You're doing a great job at trolling. Let me give you an example of the highly personal information that can be revealed with NO PROCESS.

The psychic is giving a reading. As they are giving this reading they say, "I'm getting the impression of an animal in your life. I'm fairly certain you have a pet, correct?" They say they do indeed have a pet. "And this is a dog isn't it?" They say yes.

Ross teaches you how to do exactly what I said above. There is literally no process of the spectator. The comparison to a psy force is bad because in Ross's work, you literally never ask them to do anything. You don't even ask them to think of something. You just know.

It's more like Sherlock Holmes. Sherlock Holmes looks for clues. Essentially, Ross provides you ways to look for clues to know information about people's personal life. So yes, you look for clues, but no, there is absolutely no process the spectator must go through.
Adrien L.
View Profile
Elite user
477 Posts

Profile of Adrien L.
Well, yeah... The participant needs to think of something... If he doesn't think of anything, it's kinda hard to read their thoughts Smile

Anyway... I went out yesterday and tried some elements of Karuna. I got some lovely reactions and I can confirm that the name reveal went great and really got them by surprise. I should point out that it was presented in a very informal conversation, and I don't think this would be very effective in a strolling situation...

The fact that there are effects that work for some and not for others is, to me, one of the greatest things about magic and mentalism... And I think it should be embraced and not feared. The one effect I like above all others is Aaron Alexander's The Ant Queen. I know some very good performers who didn't like it... and some that didn't even understood it... and that's fine!

The conditions in which this particular effect will work have been clearly stated, so if they don't meet your criteria, don't spend your oney and your time on it... or you'll be very frustrated.

To me, this is a keeper! Smile
Michael Zarek
View Profile
Special user
Sweden
917 Posts

Profile of Michael Zarek
Just finished reading this, might write a longer review later when I test it out, but for now in short:

I liked it.

Though it is a very weird book, and I can easily see how it wouldn't be for everybody.

It's like going from "The expert at the card table", to a book on palm reading. I know many people claim that mentalism is a branch of magic, and yet this book is something completely different and if you just want some new impromptu effect to add to your strolling mentalism, then you probably will be disappointed.

If you like doing readings and performing informally then 10 pounds (half of which goes to charity) is a very reasonable price.

Few notes:

-Yes you can reveal personal information with no process
-The main name guess in the book gives you as many letters as you want + number of letters + the gender.
Reader discretion is advised.
IMAGINACIAN
View Profile
Special user
In Your Thots
505 Posts

Profile of IMAGINACIAN
An interesting digression. Just looked it up.

KARUNA means compassion and kindness in an eastern language ! Probably reflects the 50% donation to charity.

But the discussion on the thread so far seems far from kind and compassionate? Smile
There is no better freedom than choice and no better choice than freedom.
kissdadookie
View Profile
Inner circle
4058 Posts

Profile of kissdadookie
Quote:
On Oct 19, 2016, Martin Pulman wrote:
Here is a direct quote from 'Karuna", which will give you a taste of the sort of approach inside.

"It is generally accepted these days that knowledge of a first letter, the approximate length of a name, and the gender of the thought of individual is sufficient to guess a name."

The same assumption lies behind 'Rose'.

So Ross, you are a member of the Café. Let's put your statement to the test. I'm thinking of a male name starting with the letter 'J'. It is approximately five or six letters long. To help with the geography, I live in London and spend half the year in the US, mainly New York and LA. It is someone I know personally. Have a guess.


There's 2-3 names I could guess with that which in face to face performance can be done so that it doesn't seem as if I'm fishing from a set of names. This however would only play as so live in person due to certain principles/techniques at play for that. With the disclaimer that you're also using probability to your advantage thus uncommon names would not work with such a method (that's when you resort to classic methods, now the difference between using classic methods and propless is that the propless leaves a stronger imprint in their memories of nothing being spoken or written down, a better illusion of mind reading if you will, of course use whichever approach is suitable for the situation as well since there's no one size fits all).
Aaron Smith
View Profile
New user
34 Posts

Profile of Aaron Smith
Finished my first read of this tonight. I love the routine, can tell a lot of thought has went into it and every aspect of that is explained in detail. Might post again after I've re-read and tested it out. Particularly like the name reveal, its clever thinking. For £10 and helping those less fortunate, you really can't go wrong. Would love to see more of this in mentalism and magic.
Martin Pulman
View Profile
Inner circle
London
3054 Posts

Profile of Martin Pulman
Ross is definitely to be applauded for helping the homeless in this way. A very worthy cause.
252life
View Profile
Inner circle
Ninth Circle, Hades
2247 Posts

Profile of 252life
Adrian,

Side note about Aaron Alexanders The Ant Queen;
I love it.
Now I'm waiting for, Reality as an Art, The Bridge, and Zodiac Killer.
I became an immediate fan of his work.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled slug fest Smile

252RandomPlug
Look for all the world like you're counting the brain cells in his cranium.

-Theodore Annemann
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Latest and Greatest? » » Karuna by Ross Tayler (18 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2020 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.32 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL