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David Thiel Inner circle Western Canada...where all that oil is 4005 Posts |
This is a term I learned by watching the US election. It references the notion that two things can sound the same without necessarily being the same. I don't spend as much time on the Internet as I used to, but on another forum there was an "amateur" patiently putting up with a number of condescending comments from a few of the "pros" -- guys who really needed to be more gracious to a relative newbie who was simply asking reasonable questions. His manner was polite and respectful.
I'd never heard of these pros and I know most of the people who do this for a living. One said he had been a mentalist for sixteen years. Given that he was telling the truth and wasn't really some pimply faced kid with a bag of Doritos lying his face off while he sat in a lawn chair in his mom's basement...I started wondering where all of this sage advice was coming from. Does 16 years mean one paying show every couple of months? Cause that's completely different from a guy who has been doing three shows a week for 16 years. And what's the reverence people attach to a "full time pro" about anyway? I was sitting in the bar during a break from MindVention one year and a skinny guy with the most bizarre glasses I've sent seen on someone who wasn't Elton John sat down with me. We got to talking and the wealth of knowledge he had about mentalism and the depth of understanding he had about the whole art made me smile. A friend of mine sat down with us and the fellow with the memorable glasses did a cold reading demonstration that was remarkable. (No. he wasn't a stooge in case you were wondering.) I asked him where he was working -- because I simply assumed he was a pro. He literally flushed and said he was "just an amateur." He was not just good. He was amazing. I am still in touch with him to this day...and he did his first ever pro show two months ago. As expected, he blew them away. Fast forward to the Masters of Mentalism show the next night where I watch a well known pro deliver a flat bored performance. He had done this thing a million times before and he was obviously (almost) as bored with it as we were. Here's my question: who was the better performer? Which one deserves respect? Whose advice has merit? I think that often labels get in the way of really meaningful discussions about Mentalism. There are always going to be trolls and armchair experts. These guys give themselves away almost instantly because they have no substance to back up what they "know." We need to really nurture the newcomers who care about the art because they are the ones who will be carrying it forward after we are gone. It really matters. David
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you.
My books are here: www.magicpendulums.com www.MidnightMagicAndMentalism.com |
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Amirá Inner circle MentalismCenter.com 5131 Posts |
We assume that a professional is good at his work and we assume that a hobbiest/amateur takes the tasks in a lighter manner, but if we see deeply we can see the reality. There are very boring professionals, heroes in the Magic and Mentalism that are not entertaining and are theoretical contributions, amateurs that have incredible passion and work hard to achieve their goals.
The same happened to me sometimes. I have seen "Mentalists" who are very "busy" doing gigs but the are plain, boring, uninteresting to watch and they just have a good manager or they know how to sell basically the product that the offer. So because Mentalism is a performance art, we need to see a performance to see a Mentalist,doesn't matter if he is pro or not. If someone doesn't perform Mentalism, they are not Mentalist. Simple. Best
Pablo
Performer and Author Mentalism Center: The best online space to get quality Mentalism www.mentalismcenter.com Arkanosophy: The Boutique for Mystery Performers www.arkanosophy.com |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
Couldn't disagree more. It isn't simple. The problem is when people try to make it simple. David's post ventures into several and multiple different areas and issues that shouldn't be automatically limped together for sale of "simplicity." I'm about to board a flight, but will try to get back to this in more detail later. Interesting topic though.
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j100taylor Inner circle 1198 Posts |
What's wrong with my glasses?
Lakewood, Ohio
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Alexxander Elite user Frankfurt, Germany 423 Posts |
Thank you David for this post - I totally agree.
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DynaMix Inner circle 1148 Posts |
I think an amateur should venture on the side of caution and at least try to absorb what a truly experienced performer has to say. But clearly, disrespect or speaking down to someone rarely has value no matter which direction it goes in.
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John C Eternal Order I THINK therefore I wrote 12945 Posts |
One thing I have to add about "amateurs" I think of John Ramsay (13 March 1877 – 19 January 1962)
All the American magi used to go to Scotland to see him perform coin magic. He was a grocer. Even Dai Vernon when asked how does Ramsey vanish coins he answered, he really vanishes coins! An amateur who was sought out by all professionals. |
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WitchDocChris Inner circle York, PA 2614 Posts |
I am paraphrasing because I don't know the origin of the quote, but I have heard it said that the big advances in magic come from amateurs because the professionals are too busy looking for the next gig.
My personal experience is that if someone makes a living through performance you can assume they have some knowledge of marketing, sales, finance management, etc. Whether the show is any good is not guaranteed in the slightest, for a few reasons. First of course being what I think is good and what you think is good could be two totally different things - it's subjective. Second being that the quality of the show only has to meet a fairly low bar. The people purchasing these services are, by and large, not experts in performance. If they enjoy a show, even if by another peroformer's standards it's lame, they will pay for it. How much they pay for it is another matter, of course. A few things come to mind. First, one of the first lectures I attended was Wayne Houchin. He told a story about a magician he had seen who actually cut a volunteer's face with a card sword, then just hustled to get the person off the stage instead of making sure they were ok. I rarely see magic shows (Or hypnosis or circus for that matter). They just don't interest me much any more - too much of the same old thing. That's a big part of why I didn't get into magic until I was older - it just didn't seem that interesting to me until I got hooked doing stuff myself. I could go on but it would just be ranting. The point is one can make a living with a mediocre product. I like and respect anyone who shows me passion for their work. And I do think we, as magicians and performers, would do better if we welcomed new people and guided them instant of dismissing those who know less. I know it's difficult to answer the same questions over and over, because that's basically what I do for a day job. But if we want people to give us respect and to respect our art and our work, we need to show them respect as well.
Christopher
Witch Doctor Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4 Boffo eBook: https://tinyurl.com/387sxkcd |
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Dr Spektor Eternal Order Carcanis 10781 Posts |
Dai Vernon
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
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Lucien Astor Special user Sunken R'lyeh 661 Posts |
...or Ed Marlo.
Creativity and experience can be mutually exclusive. A professional can talk about the business aspects of managing a career, the logistics of staging a show, and the management of audiences. They offer invaluable and sage advice. An amateur is equally qualified to talk about creativity and the mechanics behind our legerdemain. Sometimes more so. Amateurs get to spend their time playing, exploring, and moving in unexpected directions. Professionals can't always afford such a luxury of time when they are managing a business. Both have valuable things to say, it depends on the type of advice you are looking for. imho. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 21, 2016, Lucien Astor wrote: i agree completely... and looking through the older classics, we see that some of the best pro performers weren't always great with the business side, and vice versa...just like you will find so many non-full pro's who have contributed hugely to mentalism, both in plot and in technique(s)... demanding something be one way or no way suffocates and limits the idea of the forum, which is communicate with each other freely...you can ask pros the same question and get different answers on certain things... if self-help books really worked, there would only ever be one self-help book out there - because they would give you definitive advice that was applicable to everyone and would outsell all others forever and ever... but there isn't, and it can't...
I've asked to be banned
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts |
Lots of interesting points. I would only add that, in my opinion, those who perform mentalism on stage on a regular basis have gained hard-earned wisdom at the coal-face that the rest of us have not earned. It takes real talent to captivate and entertain a large audience. Those of us who only perform in a close up or informal capacity should always remember that, in many ways, stage mentalism is a somewhat distinct discipline, requiring an extra set of skills.
I really admire anyone who does it for a living. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
I agree and I think that is what is at the crux of so much misunderstanding and dififernces here. For those that work the stage regularly it is difficult to try to relate to those that don't as sooo much of what comes into play is not present with closeup performers, and even of course completely absent from those that do not perform in real performance situations at all.
I will always content that mentalism is best and meant for the stage. In 40 years of booking thousands of all types of entertainment, I have yet seen or ever been convinced otherwise. You are really talking two completely different things, like comparing kumquats and watermelons. There are many in the industry that do not even consider closeup mentlaism mentalism at all, but simply magic (if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...), so I understand the differences and separation you refer to. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Has anyone seen the clip from a lecture at the P.E.A. that bob gave, and put on Black Box Cinema?
I agree, complete and utter respect to anyone who does this for a full time job...
I've asked to be banned
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Tom Cutts Staff Northern CA 5925 Posts |
I think what causes disconnect for some people is that some consider mentalism to be this one specific thing which happens on stage, while others consider mentalism to be about connecting with and engaging people with real mentalism demonstrations regardless of the venue.
Similar to but different from those who see mentalism and psychic readings as similar vs those who see them as very different. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
To add to tom's post, I'll say this...
in Black Box Cinema - bob cassidy says at one point "basically, all my gigs are booked from close up work..." in ted lesley's Paramiracles, he shows you his close-up table, where small groups come and visit him both ron martin and john riggs have talked about doing tarot readings in bars, to gain interest, intrigue and to make contacts... the late great john wells was a bar-room reader of great repute... dr jaks and his book of unusual objects... our history is based equally on close-up and stage (from spiritualist one-on-ones, to group/stage readings) and far more besides... there should be respect for the history, the present and the future...if we want to follow the advice of those we identify with in some way, then we should... for me, mentalism is an abstract artform these days, our culture is different, our beliefs are different, we should be different...and reflect our influences and inspirations, as well as aspirations too I suppose... for me, close-up mentalism exists and can be done well...i neither seek permission nor approval from anyone, unless I am learning from them in some way...
I've asked to be banned
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 21, 2016, IAIN wrote: I agree that close up is an important part of the art form (I'm not a fan of walk-around mentalism but that's another fight for another day). I do believe, however, that mentalism reaches its most brilliant and vital expression on stage. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Then great! I would never talk about mentalism itself in negative terms, just maybe some of the rotters within it
for me personally, I have asked myself "what would I like to see more than anything in the world mentalism wise?" - and I have two answers I can't pick between, to see Annemann on stage at his best, or something more intimate with chan canasta...really can't pick between the two... its ok to love both - and also be 'allowed' to like anything inbetween too if it floats your particular boat... who wouldn't have liked to have seen hendrix close up on a 12 string acoustic, at an intimate gathering, as well as setting fire to his guitar at Monterey?
I've asked to be banned
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts |
Ah! Chan! The two dreams I'll never make come true. To meet Brando and to meet Canasta.
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IMAGINACIAN Special user In Your Thots 558 Posts |
This is turning out to be a truly enlightening thread, for me. I'm able to learn from each of the above posts, with each poster bringing in his unique pov.
A professional (and successful) stage mentalist may feel he is the true representative of real mentalism. A professional (and successful) reader may feel the same. A successful mentalist who uses close up performances to get stage gigs may feel as an all rounder and hence a true representative of real mentalism. A creatiave amateur may feel that he is the true face of mentalism as he is able to advance the art with his new ideas. And similarly, for all we know, a professional counselor in a clinical situation genuinely helping people MAY feel that he is a 'true' mentalist in comparison to all those 'pseudo' guys who do it only for entertainment. But I really wonder, is 'mentalism' not much more than the sum of all these? Are we not trying to LIMIT it by OUR individual experience and OUR individual perspective? Consequently defining mentalism into a rather narrower space than it actually is. At this point, I could think through only so far...
There is no better freedom than choice and no better choice than freedom.
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