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KentuckySlim New user 34 Posts |
For those who can't read paper (and with a few extra grand to spare) there's a high-tech device disguised as a common smart phone that'll do the work for you.
Stumbled across this article about the device (features a link to a video of their Defcon presentation about it), the technology is certainly fascinating: Full(er) House: Exposing high-end poker cheating devices. |
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Artie Fufkin Special user 853 Posts |
A simple question would be, what dealer (other than yourself) is going to place the shuffled deck of cards down in precisely the correct position for the camera to read them, then pick that deck (that they just put down) back up again, and then deal them out?
I know that offering the deck for a cut, blah, blah, blah, puts it out on the table, but in exactly the right place that the camera can catch those few pixels required to ID the top card? Probably not. Even if this was intended to be used by the house, what professional dealer comes to the table and puts their cellphone down in the middle of the table? And considering you have just placed the deck down in EXACTLY the right position in front of the camera, it means the shuffled deck was just in your hands, where a simple peek would accomplish roughly the same thing. Maybe I'm missing the point ... or maybe I'm just old and negative about things (I did just turn 60 today), but I suspect this is a collectors piece, or something used in some weird sort of private game where (for some reason) the dealer places the shuffled deck in exactly the same position on the table after every shuffle, and nobody notices - or says anything. BUT, I guess it could be used ONCE in any given game, to bring in that one huge pot ... maybe that's what it's good for?! |
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JFX Regular user 146 Posts |
I agree with Artie. But the inner workings of this device are pretty cool and interesting to see. Their defcon talk is also worth watching.
Thanks a lot for sharing Slim! Quote:
(I did just turn 60 today) Happy Birthday! |
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jjsanvert Special user Paris, France 581 Posts |
Great article, thanks Slim.
JJS
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TH10111 Regular user 155 Posts |
Firstly, for a game like hold'em this device can tell you who is going to win the hand if everyone played to the showdown. So a simple peek would struggle to do the same thing, except maybe in a two or three player game of 'high card'.
I agree that having a mobile phone on the table is rarely accepted, but the camera in the car key may be tolerated in some cases, though it would definitely still appear out of place. However, there is no reason that the device could not be hidden in a stack of chips or even embedded in the gaming table itself. In terms of the cards being placed in the perfect spot, this is a severe limitation, however the device doesn't have to only be used on your deal so it could be moved to get a better angle whilst someone else is cutting the cards. If a marked deck like this made its way into a casino, then having a player sit with their keys in their hand as they play blackjack would not likely be seen as suspicious and would also allow them to aim the device at the shuffled stack of cards just before it is put in the shoe (assuming the shoe doesn't perform any shuffling itself). In this way they could know the dealers hole cards every hand, though it would require some feedback to indicate the number of cards taken by each player after every round. In a situation where you can provide a rigged table and there is a private dealer, the use of the device could be built in to the procedure. For example, if the cut is always given to the rightmost player and a cut card is used, the cut card can be placed in the appropriate position for the device. In this way the player is most likely to cut the deck on to the cut card and once the cut is completed the device should only require a fraction of a second to capture the image before the deck can be moved. Alternatively, if the cut is given to other players around the table, the dealer could give the out the cut card for the player to indicate where the deck should be cut. Then the dealer can perform the cut and place the cards down in an appropriate position. If no cut is performed then the dealer can simply complete their shuffling process and square up the deck to align it with the device before dealing. It may also be interesting to consider alternative ways to make money from this. The obvious one is for a player to be informed of the outcome of the hand and only commit to a pot if they are sure they will win. However, depending on the setup of the device and the information you ask it to give you there are other options. For example, if you are not in the hand a side bet could be made with another player, who is also not in the hand. This bet could be on the winner of the hand, on the hole cards of another player or on a card coming on the flop, turn or river. In a tournament setting, there are likely to be people hanging around after loosing their chips who want a bit more action. So, if the host establishment had these devices they could run a small bookie to take bets based on the action on one or multiple tables. Something like a river card guessing game in which the house "randomly" selects a card and punters may put money down on any of the other options. Obviously the house would have to be seen to loose a percentage of the time, but this could be calculated such that it is able to offer the punters very good odds and still return a profit. Or what may be more subtle is to have these devices on multiple tables, let the punters place their bets before the target table is "randomly" chosen. As long as the bookie was not associated with the establishment then the integrity of the tournament would never be questioned, even if the legitimacy of the bookie was. Just a few ideas, but overall a very interesting device that certainly shows the surprising (at least to me) amount of money that is being put into improving the technology used for cheating both casinos and players of private games. TH |
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Artie Fufkin Special user 853 Posts |
Quote:
On Oct 22, 2016, TH10111 wrote: Didn't see that feature demonstrated, but if you're right ... how do you deal with the fact that 8-10 players at a Hold'Em table rarely (if ever) all play to the showdown? Each time somebody drops out of a hand, do you "adjust the volume" on the device (thus adjusting the number of players), or accept that for that hand (every hand?), the device is essentially useless? Constant handling of phones, lighters, etc would tend to get noticed rather quickly at most tables where one of the players has invested $5000.00 in a cheating device. I doubt you're going to bring one of these to your weekly 1-2 game. Speaking of adjusting the volume, presumably you have your headphones plugged into the device in order to have the voice prompt give you the information. So the visual I get is somebody moving their phone around the table, with the headphones plugged in, and the buds stuck into their ears ... this ((IMO) starts to look a bit silly as the headphone cable stretches out with you moving your phone about - adjusting it to see the deck. It gets even sillier if you turn off the "audio prompt" function, and start trying to look at the screen for the prompts, but at least you're not dragging your headphone cable all over the table! Any players I've ever played with would almost immediately notice constant efforts to either place the deck in a specific location on the table, or equally would notice a player constantly adjusting his phone, keys, chips, etc. But your ideas do highlight some methods that might be possible, although they all seem to have issues to be dealt with somewhere in their deployment. Definitive statements never work in these types of discussions, and I wouldn't be so foolish to state that these devices don't work, and that no real hustler would ever use them. I'm sure that more than one flatie has lost money to a player using this type of hi-tec device, although I equally suspect that most guys hustling professionally for rent, milk, and bread money are inclined to stay away from these kinds of things, and depend instead on thinking that has "got the money" for decades (if not centuries) now. |
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Peterson Regular user 159 Posts |
"So the visual I get is somebody moving their phone around the table, with the headphones plugged in.."
You can have the Bluetooth connection between the reader and device that is attached to your leg that sends information thru vibration in binary or whatever you want.. (it can be done with a little bit of knowledge) https://www.elie.net/image/public/147698......work.jpg Based on this picture you can easily assume that someone already made a table with this type of scheme build into the borders of the table and concealed with the elegant design choice. (so that the card are viewed from the back). This can be easily set up on every player position and connected to the hardware that is also concealed underneath the table. "Originally based on my investigation, I thought these devices were mostly used in Asia, which could explain the poor translation. However, following the Defcon talk, anonymous sources told me that these devices are indeed actively used in the US, including Vegas, to rip people off." This is already making the money and it is good example how cheating can be developed even further with help of technology. |
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TH10111 Regular user 155 Posts |
I would recommend the DefCon talk, which mentions these features. It also shows the earbud used to communicate with the player, which looks like something out of a James Bond film. It is also possible to have signals send to vibrating motors hidden about your person if that is preferred.
It's true that rarely do all players reach the showdown, but that doesn't change who would have the best two cards at the end, whether they get there or not. For example, a player holding 72o would most likely fold preflop, but the flop could come with two sevens and a deuce. However, the device would pick that player as the winner. The advantage comes from that player having this information and then deciding to stay in the hand. I definitely agree that there are problems to be worked out and many solutions are going to be highly situation based. Additionally, I am certainly not in a position to comment on whether the device would be used in the real world… |
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TH10111 Regular user 155 Posts |
I think you're right Peterson, somebody has almost definitely built a table, probably with many cameras from lots of angles so that no matter where the cards are placed, they can be seen.
TH |
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Artie Fufkin Special user 853 Posts |
I guess if you're talking about a gaffed table, you're really talking about the potential for a gaffed room, with unseen confederates, and multiple hidden cameras - in other words, being cheated by either the house, or some derivation of "the house".
To me, (and it's only a personal opinion) ... this is all very different from a single-o walking into a room, and hustling a game. Once the conversation swings to talking about a gaffed table, or a gaffed room - it's really a discussion about all of the many potential advantages a house could use against a player, and has little to do with that single-o hustling other players. But it's interesting technology, and I'm sure it's making an impact in more than one game, at more than one table, and likely in more than one city or country. |
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Peterson Regular user 159 Posts |
I guess if you consider "single-o hustling other players" it might be tricky now. But if you look at younger generation, that has their phones in the hands 24/7 and even if you play cards and talk with somebody, someone is usually chatting non stop with some chick, the phone on the table is not a problem.
That of course is very hard, because you can only read someone in front of you or your own shuffle. (as have been stated it will look silly "out with you moving your phone about - adjusting it to see the deck" ) In scenario "single-o hustling other players" it will bring very little. But it will bring something without any moves. |
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Claudio Inner circle Europe 1927 Posts |
I have little experience in gambling/cheating matters, but know a bit about technology and programming.
Agreed, the infrared technology is interesting but still too limited to be of any real use in most situations, I would have thought. If one were to rig a table, it would be easier to alter a RFID poker table and cards software so that one can receive, via a smartphone for example, useful information about the game. It would not be too difficult a task to take on and a RFID poker table kit costs about the same as the individual device presented by the OP. However, I must admit that I have no idea if people would be happy to play on a RFID table at someone else's home or if you would be laughed out of the room! |
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Artie Fufkin Special user 853 Posts |
There are really two ways an experienced player makes money at Hold'em, hours of grinding out small wins when you know you've got the best of it, OR making one big hit on a pot against another well stacked player who believes he's got the win.
If this device is used to take down one single pot that contains over half the money on the table, and if you have a plan that includes how the phone, keys, or lighter will be moved about the table in order to guarantee a scan of the deck on this "one big pot" - I can see an advantage to be had. I would suspect that this may indeed be how the device is used by most using it today ... any other scenario involves some extremely crazy moving about of the cards and the phone/lighter/keys, and would definitely bring suspicion onto the guilty party. On the other hand, used on a one shot deal for the biggest pot of the night ... suspicion likely wouldn't be a factor if the hustler cleaned up properly, and managed to obscure all the gaffed junk laying about (cards, keys, lighters, phones, etc) before some sharp eyed loser decided he wanted a closer look. Wouldn't be interested in owning or using one myself, but within a very rigidly controlled set of parameters as to how one intended to use it ... I could see it registering a definite advantage. If one posits how the house might take an advantage from something like this, personally I consider that an entirely different conversation - and further that there are already well established methods that the house can utilize to take advantage of players, methods that don't involve having to line up a deck of cards with a camera on the table, and indeed methods that can be far more devastating to the flatie(s) overall. Then again , using the "one big pot" scenario might raise the question "why not just ring in a cooler and be done with it"? |
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Cagliostro Inner circle 2478 Posts |
Certainly interesting and shows the direction some hi-tech cheating is developing or in some instances has already arrived.
For the most part, the device as shown appears to be impractical but the many ideas stated herein suggest some interesting and intriguing possibilities. How workable this all is in the formats stated remains to be seen. If this is being used effectively in some practical form, it will not be exposed to a relatively large number of people but rather secretly applied. When something like this is exposed to many, intriguing as it may be, the people making the money are usually the ones selling the device. Quite frankly, there are so many ways to "skin a cat," that unless someone has access to a rather unique set of conditions (or setup), and a game where significant money is involved, then more common methods would probably work better in most instances as Artie Fufkin mentioned. Also, we don't know how easily detectable the work may be. That is not explained or shown and is critically important. After all the cards are marked and how visible the marks may be, or how easily they can be detected with a simple device if not visible to the naked eye is another story. Then again marked cards have to be put into play to make everything workable which is not always so simple in many instances. Of course, maybe I am getting a little behind the times and my Erdnase Overhand Stacking may be a little out of date, but it still works in the Old Maid game I play in and I think this devise may be a little overkill in that situation. I have mentioned on some previous posts that the use of playing cards will most likely eventually become obsolete over the course of one or two generations and electronic formats for poker, gin, and whatever game played with cards will change. I am surprise that it is not moving more rapidly in that direction but the toddler generation will be the ones that will start that change after the old folks like me leave for the big casino in the sky. |
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JasonEngland V.I.P. Las Vegas, NV 1728 Posts |
Couple of things about these devices.
First of all, they're not new. They first appeared about 6 years ago and the basic concept behind them has remained unchanged although the technology has improved somewhat (faster processing, more accurate reads that don't depend on the deck being perfectly squared, and less accuracy required in deck placement). The format they thrive in is high-stakes, private games with a permanent dealer. The dealer would ideally be down with the play but that isn't critical. At a 9-seat hold 'em game an ideal situation would be 3 or 4 cheaters and 5 or 6 targets. The chances of getting a good match-up is pretty high in those cases. Typically a team captain will receive the output and signal the other team members to continue playing or to fold. That's not always the case, sometimes everyone down with the play wears an earpiece, but it's usually better if one person controls the play - less chance of detection if there is only one earpiece vs 4 (or more). Those earpieces are very difficult to see, but you can actually hear them if you're sitting right next to the person and the room is quiet enough. The early versions of the software only told you 1st and 2nd place. You didn't know what the actual cards were, nor did you know what the board cards would be. Those early versions were a lot trickier to play. Even if the software told you that you were going to have the best hand, you still to look at your hand and decide if it was "playable" from your position. Deciding to play a hand like 92o from middle position after 2 players have raised in front of you is always going to look terrible, even though you would win the hand. The more recent versions of the software allow you to query the device to tell you the actual cards that will appear on the flop, turn and river. I believe some of them also allow you to ask what your opponent's cards (the 2nd place person) are. There is more information fidelity in these newer versions and the play can look much better now. In the first versions, the decks had to be placed fairly consistently at a specific distance from the camera to get a good read. The cards also had to be squared up nicely or you could get a false read. Lastly, if you cut and grabbed the cards too quickly you could accidentally "outrun" the machine and not give it time to get a read. Those problems have largely been solved. The most modern versions allow for a decent amount of tolerance in where the cards are placed, don't require a perfectly squared deck and "see" the deck very quickly - it's very difficult to outrun the device now. A curious note about cutting the cards: Imagine that the read is coming from behind the deck. If you cut off more than half, then there are not enough cards to get a read in a 9-player game. The machine has to wait until you've completed the cut to get a read. But if you cut less than 26, then as your right hand is moving forward, you leave behind enough cards for the device to calculate the winning position. You can then come back and get this half and slap it on top very quickly and deal. You got your read mid-cut, not after the cut. It allows for a much nicer looking cutting procedure. This is where it helps to have a dealer that is down with the play - they can be instructed on how to shuffle and cut, even if they don't do any sleight-of-hand moves. I mention the read coming from behind the shuffler because the best version of these devices that I've seen had one built into the dealer's rack in a standard 9-seat poker table. With that set-up, there are no phones or key fobs anywhere on the table. The rack looked perfect (I couldn't see the IR-bandpass plastic until I looked very closely for it) and it "belongs" on the table so there was no suspicion. I watched one night in 2011 as Rod the Hop dealt this system. Since he was a world-class mechanic, he would shuffle the cards once, get a read and if he liked that read (if it matched a target player against a team member) then he would false shuffle from that point on and then false cut onto the cut card, preserving that read the entire time. If after the first shuffle he didn't get a read he wanted, he would legitimately shuffle again and get another read. He could continue this process for up to four riffles if he needed to before it started to look bad. Having a great mechanic working in conjunction with this machine was the best of both worlds - you used the device to get the information, but you didn't have to wait around for the cards to just happen to fall the way you wanted them to fall. A single hand that night went off for $30,000 - that hand paid for the machine 10x over. It was very interesting to me that while the cheaters had this device in the rack, they typically only used it to avoid going broke. One of the biggest downfalls of this machine is that you don't always get the players to line up the way you want. Many times, a target player (sucker) has the best hand and a different target player has the next best hand. That just moves the money from one sucker to another. You have to wait for another hand to really make anything. Other times, a team member has the best hand but another team member has the second best. Again, you're just moving the money around the table. On still other occasions, a sucker has the second best hand, but you've got one of those awful hands that you just can't justify staying in with. I saw the team violate this "rule" a few times and although it didn't put an end to the festivities, a few players commented on it. The team quickly went back to playing only the best situations. Worse still is when you have the best hand (and it's a playable hand) but the sucker's hand doesn't look playable to him - remember, he doesn't know that his J9o was going to make him three Jacks on the flop. So, he folds and you win the blinds. Ugh. Another wasted opportunity. What it really boils down to is that these devices prevent you from going broke (you'll never play against someone that's got you beat), but they don't guarantee that you'll make any money very quickly. Of course in the long run you would clean up - but cheaters want it all now. So, in the games I was able to witness, they used the device for the majority of the hands but still had Rod kick in a few coolers via sleight-of-hand towards the end of the night. Although I don't believe these devices are in operation in any legitimate card room here in Vegas now, it's possible that they were at one point. For a while dealers at a major strip poker room here in Vegas were being asked to shuffle and cut onto the cut card and then come back to the dealer's rack with both hands for a second (as if to "prove" the cut was clean). When we heard about this, Rod and I suspected that perhaps a device was in use at that table and the dealers were being instructed to release the deck to ensure the team was getting a good read. That room no longer uses that rule, so I don't know for sure. This was in 2011 and 2012. It's possible that it was never in the poker rooms, but that "come off the deck" rule was very suspicious to me considering the fact that these devices were largely unknown back then and could have won a ton of money. A curious thing about the ink used on these cards. I've seen both plastic cards and paper cards. The paper cards have to be recut along their edges to allow for the printing process. I guess that gives them a smoother surface on which to use whatever printers they're using to make the cards. Regardless, it leaves a tell - the one mentioned in Elie's blog post: the corners have to be re-rounded. The plastic cards don't appear to have been recut before printing the ink on the sides. They look pretty good. The only problem here is that even though the ink fluoresces in the IR spectrum, there must be some sort of "carrier" (like alcohol or some similar chemical) that the ink is mixed with. After a period of 6 or 8 months, the inks apparently start to oxidize and become very faintly visible to the naked eye. Of course, you wouldn't know what you were looking at unless you suspected marked cards and they're still very hard to spot, but they do have that flaw. One last thing about these devices that I don't think has ever been mentioned anywhere - there are a few instances of teams setting up elaborate cons with the poker analyzers. I heard of one team that convinced a sucker to play with luminous contact lenses. They gave him several lessons on how to use them and provided him with plenty of decks of cards. He was cautioned that playing paper wasn't foolproof and that someone might outrun him from time to time on close hands, but that usually he'd win. So, he used those luminous marked cards in his private poker games for several months to great success. What he didn't know is that they were actually edge-marked with the system for the poker analyzer. After a few months, the team sent in someone with a device to read the edge-marks and absolutely crushed the guy. He was getting hole-card and top-card information and they were getting the whole story. It's the only situation I know of where everyone at the table was playing marked cards but one side had a significant advantage over the other. I met with Elie and Celine after their DEFCON talk this year. There was another person there who may wish to remain nameless - I'm not sure. Regardless, we had a nice chat and I learned some interesting things about the inner workings of these devices that I hadn't known up until a few months ago. He did a terrific job with his talk and was a very interesting person to sit down with. It was nice of him to refer to me and my friend in his blog post as "anonymous sources." Jason PS - I'm not entirely sure how to categorize these systems. Where do they belong in the hierarchy of cheating techniques/concepts? Obviously they're a version of marked cards, but the technology allows for something that plays more akin to a cooler. With normal paper, you only know the hand as it unfolds and you (maybe) get top card information along with it. With these systems, you know everything before the first card is ever dealt - that "feels" more like a cooler. I've been referring to this type of system as "deep marks" when talking with other experts, but that's just a descriptive term for my own use and mental filing system. Calling these systems "impromptu coolers" might also be appropriate. PPS - this technology and software has moved way beyond what you can buy on Chinese websites. It's currently in use in ways you wouldn't believe.
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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Artie Fufkin Special user 853 Posts |
Thanks for the insight Jason, and some of the details.
Great reading. |
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jjsanvert Special user Paris, France 581 Posts |
The Rod the Hope use of it was fascinating. Thanks Jason.
JJS
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AMcD Inner circle stacking for food! 3078 Posts |
A few things to add to the excellent post made by Jason.
1) This system if older than 6 years ago. We started to work on such a system around 2009. 2) Yes, in order to print the marks on the side, you needed to slightly recut the cards. It simply helped the printing process. Because the finish of the cards, it could be difficult to get the marking ink printed. So... 3) The first system were freaking slow. It could take like a couple of seconds for getting the information. Not really a problem 8 or 10 years after... 4) Cameras were not as good as nowadays and the data sent was not always perfectly accurate. The most obvious problem was getting misread values! I slightly disagree about the "problem" of getting the deck placed in a very accurate position. If operated in games with a permanent dealer, it's not really a big concern to get him shuffle and cut the deck always in the same place on the table. Note that today's cams can get the info from several feet away! 5) Cards getting old are not really a problem, because you change them before any evidence starts to show on the sides . 6) Setting up the software during play, for instance changing the number of players who are still into the game, is usually done externally, by an accomplice (the one who is receiving the data). Normally, the player is just receiving back who is gonna win or the instructions he has to follow. It's of course possible to run all that paraphernalia on your own, but it's not very effective. The best combo is to have someone receiving the data, the analysis of the next hand to be played and he sends the instruction to the player thru a tiny earpiece (trust me, some are microscopic!). Of course, this accomplice is not even in the room, maybe not even in the premises... That way, the player is "safe", he doesn't hold, manipulate or setup anything. But you know, this is not really a big concern. All this is the software part and about everything is possible here. For instance, we could track how many cards are dealt per round (you just need to count live how many cards are left in from of the dealer) and the software can setup the number of players accordingly. 7) Obviously, when transmitting data using radio signals, wifi, etc. One has to be aware about scanners that may be operated in the room... But there are ways to circumvent that, at least partially. Sorry, I won't be more specific. 8) As Jason says, the main problem with such a system is to get it running efficiently... for you! Okay, you know the hands of every player, you even know the winner of the next hand. But what if it's not you? Maybe if everyone is getting horrible hands you can bluff, but it's not gonna get you rich. And what about if you are the winner with an astounding A7K102 (Ace high, King on the board). How are you gonna justify your play if you beat a guy who had AQ as hole cards (and was chasing the J)? I mean, you can't be the perfect bluffer player all the time, you can't win hands like that all the time, because it's PRECISELY WHEN you'd be suspected. Bluff excepted, players bet with decent hands. You can bet you're gonna have some frowns if you spend the whole night winning hands that way. Just for the sake of illustration, say you are dealt 94 and you know you'll win that hand because a 4 is gonna pair your hand on the River, do you think you won't be suspected because someone raised you because an Ace showed on the Flop? You can try that a couple of times, but certainly not on a long run! But for playing the best hands (when playing with partners) it's obviously a good weapon. 9) I don't think that such systems are the most efficient. The future belongs to RFID marking, I'm telling you (and when I say the future...). 10) To me there are not classified as coolers, because, with coolers, you setup the hands you want the sucker(s) to get. And you decide who is gonna win. Here, you know all the cards and who is gonna win (provided he doesn't fold), but you're not the one who decided that. To me, it's just another marking system. Jason was talking about 6 years ago, here's a screenshot of one of such (Chinese) device in operation. It's from 2010: It was quite something to setup. The future? No camera, no dealer in the know... |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
The other day I was looking at the patent of the first ir card reader circa 1980s. The guy who came up with the idea was trying to calculate Bridge probabilities. The shuffle machine and dealing show makers use the idea which is a simple binary code one read by a photocell.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Artie Fufkin Special user 853 Posts |
Some posts have confirmed that the technology has varying degrees of complexity and success depending on whether one is talking about:
1) Private games with a rotating dealer. 2) Private games with an assigned permanent dealer. 3) House games with a permanent dealer, in a permanent location, with a permanent dealer. |
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