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IMAGINACIAN Special user In Your Thots 558 Posts |
Over the years, I found the following 3 techniques or strategies being employed by sellers to manipulate buyers. I feel our field can very well do without these avoidable manipulations. I'm not saying EVERY seller indulges in these 'tactics' to manipulate, but most of them, yes.
1. Paid Pre Orders - If it is only for planning, then it could just be a non-paid, non-obligatory registration of interest. And if it happens 'sold out on pre orders' can hugely satisfy the ego of the seller. There are any number of horror stories on pre orders not getting fulfilled as promised - sometimes for years together. 2. Limited Editions - This concept really beats me. Normally, one would want his/her work to outlive them and not the other way round. But the logic here seems to just garner or justify a stiff price tag. The so called 'limited edition quantities' are also generally what it would have actually sold anyway....like 200 or 300 or 400 numbers etc. So the phrase 'Limited Edition' only helps in applying 'pressure' on buyers. 3. Free Review Copies - Even I have done a few but feel that many of the 'free copy reviews' we are used to reading MAY be biased. And there is this tendency or obligation to just read and review. So we rarely get 'actual user review' in these cases. Instead there could be lower priced review copies made available. I mean there are exceptions, but I am speaking generally. Possibly, just possibly, our field may be more efficient and more honest WITHOUT these tactics being employed. Don't you think so?
There is no better freedom than choice and no better choice than freedom.
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RealityRocks New user 95 Posts |
I doubt that honesty and efficieny are a logical thing to follow if those methods wouldn't be used in the magical industry. (And this is a big IF since your wishes will never be granted since this is basically against human nature....or at least against the current human nature...read Influence by Cialdini as a primer on the mentioned topics (FREE stuff is in the chapter on reciprocity I think...I remember a story of a cheese seller, giving free cheese away; limited stuff has basically its own chapter which is called scarcity)
What does work I think, is counting on reciprocity and giving away stuff and telling people to buy it if they liked it, or only pay for the parts they liked. I once took a free offer here on the Café from Julian Moore for his "The Business" ebook and liked it so much that I bought it. He didn't even ask me to, nor did he imply that in his post where he made the offer. It is just that he has build up so much trust that I had the feeling that 20 bucks is more than a fair price (unlike other BS you can buy for 300 bucks in a super limited edition, which then seems to get resold every few years in case the inventor needs some money). So to answer your last question. My answer to that is: No. |
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts |
The hyping and selling is out of control on the Café. (The new ruse appears to be to start off seeming to be someone who simply wants to share stuff for free, but within a few weeks or months the "product" website is up and running and the items are for sale at the same hefty prices as the rest. Personally I think any reviews of products that were initially simply free gifts to Café members should be removed -as they were gained under false pretences.)
It's a shame that so much of the Café has degenerated into a big back-scratching marketplace, but as people point out to me, trying to take a stand against it is simply p*sssing in the wind. |
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Sudo Nimh Inner circle 1866 Posts |
I don't appreciate your comments at all Martin. You have had a campaign against myself and others since day one.
I have given out a lot for free and put a lot of time into doing it and writing things up for people. How dare you come here and make accusations like this. If you would have even bothered to read through the comments, you will find time and time again that many people felt I should be selling my stuff. It was a natural evolution. You offer nothing of real practical value here. Time and time again all I see is you posting negativity with your myopic viewpoints. Are you depressed again because of all of the "mentalists" on AGT that are ruining "your" mentalism? Maybe I should just flood this place with contributions for free - that'd really get your goat, wouldn't it? Why don't you try actually creating or performing something instead of just sitting around TALKING about it all day. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Personally, I don't think people giving stuff away and then deciding to sell later is no big deal...
If you've ever made something available for free on here, you'll find all kinds of horrors come crawling out from certain quarters...rudeness, demands, all kinds of stuff... I used to do free book covers, flyers etc for free for people here, doesn't mean if I charge now, that it changes anything...i did them for free cos I wanted to help, and its easy for me (designer by trade)... I do agree with the main points... And to be frank, as you can anything you want to be online, those who get freebies can just say "I bought mine", no one will know any better... I ignore certain people's reviews on here for a multitude of (logical) reasons... It is a bit of a mess on here overall...
I've asked to be banned
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts |
Quote:
On Nov 2, 2016, Sudo Nimh wrote: I've no campaign against you. I've simply pointed out elsewhere that, in my opinion, you have released an adjustment to someone else's effect and are selling it as your own. I call it as I see it. Too many items are released today that are adjustments of other people's material that really belong as a supplement to that material. Others are free to disagree. That was always the point of the Café. It wasn't designed as a place for prescribed opinions or a place to hawk goods. I have no interest in selling magic secrets. The little original material I create I keep for my own use. I only perform mentalism infrequently these days, certainly not professionally, only one-to-one or the odd private gathering. I have a decent knowledge of the subject though; a little experience in performing it on stage, and 30 years worth of experience of performing and coaching in general. I hope my comments may be of use to some people. But if not, there are many other voices here with completely opposing views. Seems healthy to me. PS: And I have nothing against people making the transition to selling their creations after starting out helping others on the Café. I have seen wonderful people make that transition and I applaud them. If it is a natural growth over a period of time- not a marketing tactic. |
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Sudo Nimh Inner circle 1866 Posts |
Martin, many people have happily purchased Eclipse after already owning I.S. and knowing full well what it was about. Clearly there is something of value there. Explain that will you?
I don't wish to have ill-feelings with anyone - even you, life is difficult enough as it is. Maybe I was a little hard on you by saying that you weren't contributing anything of value, but then, you were pretty heavy with your words too. |
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts |
Sudo, I don't want to get into a back and forth slanging match with you. I didn't say your work wasn't of value. I happen to think you seem to have a very fine mentalism mind. The material is streamlined and simple and strong. I suspect we have very similar tastes. I wouldn't have shared my thoughts on adding Ted K's subtlety to it if I didn't think it was good. But that is just my personal opinion. Others may disagree.
What doesn't sit well with me is this: AUGUST 6th 2016 ECLIPSE I have no intention of marketing this ever and it's something that I've kept under wraps for quite some time now. Just so folks are clear about what this is: It's a re-working of Peter Turner and David Sena's "Isabella Star", but the only thing they share in common is the formation of a "star" number (as I call it in my routine.) Peter refers to it as an "Astrological" number. My method came from wanting to cut to the chase more simply and directly. I believe I have achieved this. So as not to step on toes, I will share it with those who have over 50 posts and PM me with a request with one caveat: You must be an owner of Peter's routine. To prove ownership when you PM me, you must answer this question: In the credits, Peter names three individuals. Annemann,Dunninger and one other. Who is the other? SEPTEMBER 11th, 2016 IT'S ALIVE!! www.thedarkbizarre.com (ECLIPSE for sale:$20) What happened in such a short space of time to make you completely change your mind about marketing the effect? And are you still making sure those who pay you for the effect are owners of Peter's routine? |
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Sudo Nimh Inner circle 1866 Posts |
Ok. Martin...
ONE MORE TIME. I have explained this to you before on another thread... I never set out to sell the thing originally. I don't think you have any idea how many requests I had for it - I was flooded. And not only was I sharing that, I was sharing other things at the same time as well. It became too time-consuming, and again, read the posts - people here encouraged me numerous times to sell my things. I am in a position in my life right now where I am limited in options for paying the bills, so naturally it made sense. Do you honestly think I am rich because of this? Hardly. Finally, as I stated before, Michael Murray owns the rights to I.S. He and I have discussed the matter. I even offered him half of each sale - he said it wasn't necessary. There isn't an issue. So why do I have to repeatedly justify myself to you? You can continue on with this as much as you like - it doesn't matter to me. I have said all that I need to say. |
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RealityRocks New user 95 Posts |
By coincidence I bought I.S. from Sudo this morning. I stumbled upon the thread yesterday evening and PM'ed him if the offer was still available or it not, where I could buy it. But 20 bucks was a fair price point for me...because eliminating the PA from IS was worth it from me (as a German sppeaking native).
After I have opened the pdf half an hour ago, I can say...it basically has nothing to do with IS, or if you really wanna go so far and see the stuff that Comes up in both Systems, I would say that Peter as well as Sudo have forgotten to Attribute the discovery of Addition to the Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Persians, the Arabs, the Greeks...whoever cam up first with it. This is obviously an exaggeration to make the Point that it is not necessary to check if someone has bought IS, because frankly and IMHO it is not necessary. And just to be clear, I am not saying that either Peter or Sudo didn't credit enough. Both of them have credits in the pdfs. Well this could be an infinitely Long sentence, but fact is, other than adding up some things, there is not really an overlap between eclipse and IS. P.S. Will the NSA watch me if I type IS often enough? Hey there, for you spies out there, if you are looking at a Version of IS aka Isabella's Star, I hope you paid Peter Turner for it. Same goes for Eclipse by Sudo ;-) |
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts |
Quote:
On Nov 2, 2016, RealityRocks wrote: Don't be absurd. Have some respect for the brilliant routine and idea that Peter created. |
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IMAGINACIAN Special user In Your Thots 558 Posts |
My dear Martin & Sudo,
Can you also please share your thoughts on 'Paid Preorders' and 'Pricey Limited Editions', if possible
There is no better freedom than choice and no better choice than freedom.
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RealityRocks New user 95 Posts |
Quote:
On Nov 2, 2016, Martin Pulman wrote: This wasn't about me not having respect for the genius of P.T. You probably interpreted too much into my words. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
As said, if Michael Murray owns the rights and has zero problem with eclipse (dont have either), what's the problem?
I've asked to be banned
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Christopher Taylor V.I.P. British Columbia Canada 2314 Posts |
I find the idea of universally condemning pre-orders, limited editions or review copies to be ludicrous. When presented with these tactics by a creator, simply consider the source and ask yourself if you trust them. Too easy.
Christopher |
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Dr Spektor Eternal Order Carcanis 10781 Posts |
The issue, IMHO, is that there really is no professional body for professional magicians, mentalists etc. in terms of a "College" - therefore there is no true guidelines, codes of conduct etc. There are codes based on current cultural norms regarding human rights etc., and there are laws in different jurisdictions that dictate lawful and unlawful activities.... and so on.
People who betray the group often get shunned - which has been seen to happen many times. There are still good conversations that occur in the MC - but I will say over the years, I have noticed it has moved more and more to commercial product discussions and a lot of hypes and disappointments. However, once one gets used to just not taking part in it, its not so bad. In the end, the truth gets out. Sometimes it takes years (and believe me, when I used to point out certain ethical deceptions and outright crooked business dealings, I often would be attacked, and even threatened by various gangs of e-thugs.... but I see a few current people I used to stand up to have had betrayed their own followers and people are seeking retribution).... anyway... My pet peeve - when people don't advertise honestly or will not answer a simple question like "Gee this effect appears almost identical to this one.... is it a new method? Why get it if I already have something that does it?" then when no one answers, that speaks volumes....versus "It does use a different method!" fine or "Its a modification and the original creator is credited and was made aware of it" cool " its a new presentation angle using the method" etc. Back to the OP - I had started a thread elsewhere here on penny on the art of marketers and sales people techniques that are totally adaptable to our own work in terms of mentalism suggestions etc.... i.e. why do we fall for such blatant tactics like "48 hour sale only, Limited Quantities, Priced to keep the amateur away, The Real work behind X, 3 experts quoted saying "wow this is going straight into my act immediately" 'This is the most amazing thing ever" "You will kick yourself if you do not get this" and one super expert saying "The simplicity of this is so elegant that creator X is clearly becoming the next Annemann". Easy to do so you can focus on your presentation, and get exclusive elite access to a special forum that you can tell everyone you are part of and they are not." followed by new members to forums with less than 50 posts asking for 1) reviews 2) saying its amazing 3) attacking anyone who questions otherwise 4) vanish for a while until a new product comes out...." Of course, there are some excellent products that come out, using the same tactics, which is sad. the key is being able to wait and hold on to your marshmallow to eat later and get rewarded for your patience. IMHO Now, who would like to buy my new Secret of the Drunken Skull, a theatrical routine with genuine artifacts that will allow you to demonstrate mediumistic mentalist effects - with blood curdling techniques - can all be done with pure psychology - the artifacts are not gimmicked - its all pure suggestion, simple mentalist techniques, and requires people who are BOLD, yes BOLD.... this is for the real workers, the real professionals... I have kept this secret to myself for the last 15 years, but it is time to share with the community because of personal reasons I cannot share at this time. I will include a special bonus on how to use the ungimmicked skull to hypnotize a participant. I will give all buyers also a 1 hour special 1-1 SKYPE session to work out the details. There will only be 13 of these ever made. WHAT THE BIG ONES SAY "Are you on drugs?" Eugene B. T "Grunt, foam at the mouth, and otherwise get psychic." Theo A. and "A rare piece of magic, don't let it FLY by you" Jeff M. Release Date: Feb 2nd 2017. Preorder now and save 21%. Obligatory Video of the Drunken Skull $3141.59 for preorders. $5000 after Nov 2nd.
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Any advertising that mention workers, pro's and act - in all honesty, I feel that is pure marketing aimed predominately towards the hobbiest mainstream, because those terms have a kind of catnip quality to many who either want to be seen as, or allude to their pro status amongst others...
I've asked to be banned
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
To clarify, I say that because theres very few pros out there, and they tend to not add brand new stuff into their show straight away...
I've asked to be banned
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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts |
Quote:
On Nov 2, 2016, IMAGINACIAN wrote: I do take offense to some of this. I don't feel there is pressure on buyers, what is sold is not essential. Although I never pre-sold any of my offerings, and had the condition with my publisher that no orders be accepted until the product is available to ship. I did at one time have a limited publication. It was sold during the Halloween season one year, and has never seen print again. It was priced at either $25 or $30, I don't recall, I did not set the price, just a limit. My pricing was always set as, "If one item in the publication was sold as a standalone effect, what would a reasonable price be?". I don't consider the limited nature a "tactic". The product was seasonal, or could be considered as such. How an artist wishes to market his/her work is up to the artist, or the party that handles sales and distribution. Yes, I have given away review and gift copies of my work, and would probably have given it all away, that was a major reason I had a publisher handle sales and distribution as well as review copies of my work. Oh, and before I had a publisher and sold an item, I purchased ad space here on the Café. My publisher had a running ad as well. I don't see an issue with how my products were handled, and I see no issue with how some others here have handled their products. It seems that people just like to complain and draw generalizations. If you have a complaint, cite examples, name the names, don't generalize, it isn't fair. Tony Iacoviello |
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RealityRocks New user 95 Posts |
Quote:
On Nov 2, 2016, Dr Spektor wrote: ^^This! Quote:
On Nov 2, 2016, Dr Spektor wrote: Oh my, I would have either totally dominated this test or completely sucked at it. But my strategy (according to other people who know me) would have been: Eat the marshmallow before the instructor would have been able to tell me the rules. Then if he would put up another one, I would eat that when he would take a look at his Notepad...etc...so I guess I would have gotten an honorable mention in that test ;-) |
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