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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts |
Is there a reason why only one mentalist seems to make any nationwide impact in the UK or US every twenty years or so, when other art forms have multiple "household name" personalities at any one time? Is it something in the nature of mentalism itself?
In the UK the amount of mentalists who have made any impression on the consciousness of the general public over the last century can probably be counted on one hand: Piddingtons, Al Koran, Canasta, Berglas, Geller (?), Brown. And most were well-known figures for a relatively brief period. I'm not sure if it is the same in the US, but the number of true household names is similarly sparse with Dunninger and Kreskin as maybe the most well-known examples. Of course, all of the above had their own TV or radio shows or made regular appearances on television. But that only begs the question of why there is only ever one mainstream mentalist performer with their own TV show in any generation -and mostly not even that. Is it even remotely possible for another performer in the Uk to make their way into the public imagination in the same way Brown has, and to sell the amount of theatre tickets Brown has, or do those who have chosen mentalism as their art form have to accept there can be only one? |
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Rod Irroc Regular user The media swarmed over my last blindfold drive... I ran over 154 Posts |
Yes, it is certainly possible for more than one. Just my view mate- Mentalism is full of "cover artists". Not many stand out as being original.
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
It usually seems to be a generational thing. Every several generations someone comes along that understands the merging use of the art, performance and popular media to bring it to a new generation. To them it is new, fresh and unique. Then many poseurs or copy artists, as stated above, come along, saturate and over-expose the public, it loses it's specialness or the initial thing that attracted them and made it unique in the first place and then several more generations must pass until a new generation comes along with their new super star. It's the cycle in showbiz and has been for generations. Let another few generations pass...
Same with Criss Angel, it was new to a new generation. great combined use of contemporary image, and the use of television and other media. It had been a couple since anything mainstream before him. It was new to a new generation. Most of his fans have never heard of Henning, Blackstone, or others before him, maybe only Houdini. In the meantime some of the better followers can and will find decent work locally or regionally, usually always with a comparison to the breakthrough star, but will be the closest thing to corporate, fair, college, cruise lines, etc. markets and audiences. For mentalism especially, since it is supposed to be someone with very special or unique abilities, they're shouldn't be others that come along. Uri, for example, was very special to many. He possessed unique abilities others didn't (perception). If true, there shouldn't be many others to follow suit. |
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts |
Quote:
On Nov 4, 2016, Mindpro wrote: And yet Geller and Berglas managed to co-exist in the UK. There was even a somewhat friendly rivalry between them that was referenced on Berglas's TV appearances. Is it not possible to imagine a rival to Brown, with similar gifts and abilities, but perhaps darker or edgier? A kind of "Rolling Stones" to Brown's 'Beatles"? I'm interested to know why that hasn't happened. |
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
I believe DB's agent said "I don't want another derren, I want the next 'you'"
I would have liked to have seen how Andy Nyman would have done things considering his acting skills and liking for the darker things... Whoever it is next, from wherever, it needs a fresh direction in my opinion...it needs to both challenge and engage in equal measure... I'd like to see jermay get a late night bbc2 show...
I've asked to be banned
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts |
I don't think Luke Jermay would be a fresh new direction from Derren Brown. He's very much followed in his wake.
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
I don't think his premise or presentations are anyway similar personally 😊
I've asked to be banned
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
You're getting into two different areas here. The Stones & Beatles were additions to an existing movement. They were locals that put their own spin on something bigger than them already in progress (rock-n-roll). It was something existing but evolving to audiences. That is not how mentalism is seen or experienced by the public. It's not a progressive movement (as it may be to those of us in the industry). It is experienced more as a one time single discovery or breakthrough to them (even though it may have had previous existence to other generations). To them it is fresh, new and unique. Something special and wow. Once that is established, it's done in their minds. It's happened. Yes, they will remain fans likely for a lifetime, of course not to the degree of initial response, but is is there, been done, been experienced.
It's like our Chicago Cubs here in the states. After 108 years they finally won the World Series in baseball. Fans worldwide followed this, hoped for this, experienced this. It hadn't happened for generations. It has happened. Sure the Cubs may win the World Series again, but it'll never be the same again as it was this time. It can't. This is why many bands and artists from the 70s, 80s and 90s struggle to get it. They all can't seem to understand why they can't once again return to superstardome and the top of the charts in their industry, Their part in the progressive movement has passed. Sure some of the top superstars may remain and evolve, but the moment and time for most has passed with the progression/evolvement. Sure they can work nostalgia circuits, but will likely never be as popular again. In our art Derren will always remain popular to this generation over there. Yes, he is likely to lose the initial impact he had (many believe he already has) but since he was very special and unique and the top of his time, he will continue. A couple of others may be accepted during this time as well, but likely not to the level of the initial star. But since it's been done it'll be a few generation until it is once again new and fresh to those at that time. Also what mentalists have always done was impressive to new audiences experiencing it for the for first the time. The question remains, with technology and advances, if such impact will still remain for future generations. This is where the preservation of industry and trade secrets come into play. With so much info readily available and becoming more commonplace, it could very well not be experienced the same to future generations. |
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts |
That's what I asked in my original question, Mind Pro. Is there something in the nature of mentalism itself that means there can never be more than one performer who becomes a household name? I think you may well be right. The audience are reacting to the act being performed as much as to the artist performing it. If Nyman had decided to take the TV gig would the public ever have heard of Brown?
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Dr Spektor Eternal Order Carcanis 10781 Posts |
The person needs to connect the material and his/her character to relevant current cultural/political/etc. issues.....
Spiritualists and Mediums.... gave rise to the Annemanns and classical mentalism - dark and spooky and weird mind powers and blending of science and superstition of the Twilight Zone..... then came the psychic entertainers and the alien-beam-altered brain types of (pseudo)science and the raise of the "psychological explanation for all"...... look at the times of the 1900s, 1950s, 1980s, 1990s...2000.... you can see the appeal in retrospect. Also, it will be factored also on Media power.... who can command attention and keep it fresh.... and controversy.... yes they have to be challenging something important to bring discussion and mystery.... and be prepared to take on challengers (and be sentenced to play a game of pool forever.... for we Twilight Zone fans wink wink nudge nudge).... What would an evolved human be of the next step in our evolution to give us hope and demonstrate powers and abilities that capture the imagination - that can help people feel special and SAFE. aye, the next person will show a way to deal with a world of countries with atomic bombs, biological weapons, genocide, and so on - not that it is new - but the Media has made it the common-place way of thinking and then muddying up minds with pablum about celebrities.... ala Fahrenheit 451. Indeed, the next big person will be Montag... or a giant mechanical hound. Likely they would be a team.
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Could be trendier? Hipster vintage yet techie too? More metaphorical as well...
I've asked to be banned
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts |
I want some of whatever the good Dr is self-medicating.
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
Perhaps. In reality the performer that becomes the known "star" is a a combination of personality, talent, vision, business and the creating the entire format and "machine" behind them. So perhaps it could've been Nyman, but I do not know much about him as a person, his personality and some of these other elements.
Several years ago I was approached by some people behind a couple of the biggest names in the business with interest in making me "the guy," as they compared to Criss Angel, in the world of hypnosis. There hasn't been a "star" performer for some years (generations), likely since Raveen. Since I had the talent and understood teh business so well, they thought I'd be ideal. I seriously considered their interest and very generous offer for a brief moment, but realizing this positioning and combination of factors, I decided against it. To this day they still try to convince me otherwise. I tell them to find a younger, more contemporary person (or to create one) and I may be willing to assist in this capacity with them. This then caries over to the old Fabian and Idolmaker scenario. Many believe, and it has been proven, that such status can be created. After seeing the popularity of Elvis and others a promoter/producer made a bet with another industry insider that he could "manufacture" or create a teen idol from scratch, with someone with no talent or experience, but could simply create this combination of crucial components that combine to create such a "package." Hence the Fabian story or legend. I do believe it can happen this way, but there will be problems and pitfalls. But I believe the same efforts could be applied to someone with established talent with again the right combination of elements. It takes a certain type of person. I do not know enough about Andy Nyman to know if he is that type of person. |
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WDavis Inner circle 1276 Posts |
Martin,
This topic is part of the flow of ideas in mine. Performers, especially here on the Café, think I can do that too (if not better), others think the entertainment world is like a regular joe's job (like a plumber, accountant, or dr.). Entertainment is not the same animal. You have few on the top that reap huge rewards an the rest get the fodder. How many part time Starbucks baristas are waiting for their book to be published or get that call back from casting for their big break. Most never get a big break. Some give up others keep plugging away. Success is not just your ability alone it's also a bit random. For example, I"ll discuss extremely short-term success, the viral video. Person makes 100 of stupid internet videos, one randomly rises to the top of YouTube about a pen and an apple. Now he's an internet sensation getting even more views and success. Then shortly after he disapears because he cannot sustain the rise. The guy who made the video didn't do anything different then the billions of other people making stupid YouTube videos. Why was he selected? We don't know before hand...we couldn't predict it's success, but once it's there we immediately rationalize his success with a "cause" that led to it. Truth is... We do our best, consistently... And we hope that we become a success... Most won't. |
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SolidSnake Special user 534 Posts |
In my opinion- there are very few unique personalities or approaches amongst mentalists right now. Everyone is copying either Derren or someone else. Some may say they don't but watching my them - it is clear that their approach is similar.
For a new breakout star - we will need someone with an approach far removed from Derren or any popular performer. Cover bands are never famous.
There is no holy grail!
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
Yes, their is a whole new level of faux or fake success. Many younger people can't distinguish the difference. Some great points Walter. The problem I see with many is they falsely believe their talent alone is enough. "I am better than that guy who is successful, therefore I should be entitled to it or more as well."
That is not how success, fame or positioning works. Every single personal who experiences success does so because of the business behind the artist and talent. Ego must be removed. It isn't in the faux or youtube examples offered. While such success can be a formula I believe, it is rarely understood by most as they usually are only short-sided by their own perspective or singular position. It is for this reason it takes much more and usually many more people to achieve this. |
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Martin Pulman Inner circle London 3399 Posts |
W, I think you are making a slightly different point. Of course very few people ever make it in show business. 95% of actors are unemployed at one time, apparently. But with mentalism only one performer ever seems to make it on a national level at any one time. And once they are in place, that's it. Why? Maybe it is simply the limits of mentalism as an art form?
But I wonder also if the lack of originality, the "cover version" mentality may also partly be to blame. When I first saw Derren Brown performing it was clear he was trying to do something very different. To break out of the pack. When he told me he was about to do a TV show I was certain he was going to be a massive hit. It was definitely a case of him being in the right place at the right time, but he also had a clear artistic ambition, related to performance, that I just don't see among most of the younger guys. A lot of the younger set seem more interested in selling stuff to people, rather than creating a unique performing persona, and pushing and striving for greater heights. |
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WDavis Inner circle 1276 Posts |
Martin,
I don't think I am making a different point, but I can see how it can be viewed that way. I'm viewing it as most people are conforming ( someone else said cover artist. I am saying herding mentality) this conforming mentality is the same as fitting oneself into a bell curve (again majority or group thought). And the outlier either positive or negative is the extreme failure or success or household name. (The failure abandons the art and isn't heard of again nor is questioned ) No one else makes it out of the 95% group thought. Now as the group sees the successful outlier, the bell curved group shifts to mimick the outlier and thusly eliminating any new extreme success of the same type. |
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Dr Spektor Eternal Order Carcanis 10781 Posts |
This is a type that might make a splash.
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
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Dr Spektor Eternal Order Carcanis 10781 Posts |
A reality engineer type might also work
"They are lean and athirst!!!!"
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