What if I don't believe the Bible to be the only inspired infallible Word of God?

Also, what if (going along with this FCM statement of faith) do I agree with this statement (which I don't), would my statement of faith be disqualified for using Scripture from a Catholic Bible, which includes the Deutero-canonical books of the Bible? Not all Christians use the NLT or KJV -- there's also the NAB and the Douay Rheimes. Does FCM accept these translations to be infallible, too?

I'd be curious to know if there's a more *inclusive* magicians group that doesn't discriminate. My own firsthand experience is that both the IBM and SAM are far more inclusive and accepting of Catholics than FCM seems to be -- in IBM's case, the archive of TLR (40's/50's-era and earlier) is a treasure chest of Gospel magic.

BCE, While not more inclusive there is a Catholic Magicians Guild. Unfortunately it is very small and does not have many meetings. But at least in a spiritual manner you could get support from fellow Catholic Magicians.



I need to take a bit of time to ponder your objection to the the statement of faith of the FCM. So don't take what I am about to say as absolutely (infallibly) correct.

It seems to me that Scripture is truly the "only inspired Word of God" that meaning all of the books including the deuterocanonical books (or apocryphal books as our protestant brothers would call them)

I assume your hesitation comes from Papal infallibility, and the other forms of infallibility the Church professes. But while these forms of infallibility are inspired by the Holy Spirit's guidance of the Church, these are not THE Word of God. Rather they are teachings and guidance.

Word of God meaning Jesus Christ who was in the beginning and the Scriptures which are in a unique way is truly Gods Words poured fourth for us men.

Magisterial document while they can infallibly proclaim a truth is not the same as the inspired word of God. If you read those documents while you my greatly benefit, but you would not be reading words that are inspired by God. Rather you would be reading words that God allows to express the truth. One further note on the infallibility of the church, probably more for the sake of our Protestant brothers than for yourself. Not everything that Magisterium of the Church puts out is infallible, only things that are concerning faith and morals AND are intended to be proclaimed infallibly.



In other words I think as a Catholic it is fair to say "the Bible is the only inspired infallible Word of God" as long as you are not denying the infallibility of the Church and recognizing the unique way in which the Scripture is truly THE Word of God.



Now I have not yet join FCM either so I also cannot say what the FCM actually means with its statement of faith, though with just the wording of it I don't think it is necessary to oppose it as a Catholic

But again I need more time to really think on and investigate this. But if your objections are different than what I assumed they are please let me know so I can ponder that them as well.

My hesitation has more to do with the obvious question of: how were Christians "saved" before the printing press was invented if there were no Bibles in circulation?

Are FCM members permitted to believe in the Communion of Saints? Apostolic Tradition? (That's Capital-T Tradition, not lower-case "t" tradition.) If I happened to have a rosary with me while at FCM functions, or a Mother Angelica book, would I be treated like a Satanist?

At a time when fraternal organizations (including IBM and SAM) are losing members to YouTube and social media, FCM is the only organization whose objectives alienate and exclude Catholic Christians. That seems really stupid to me. Really stupid.

The mission statement I found for the FCM is as follows:

I have received Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior and believe the Bible to be the only inspired infallible Word of God. I believe that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin and He died on the cross as the only atonement for our sins; that He rose from the dead; that He ascended to the Father’s right hand in Heaven, and will one day come back for those who trust in Him. As a member of this Fellowship, I commit myself to: (1) reaching lost souls and encouraging growth in the body of Christ through the use of such talents as magic, ventriloquism and associated arts; (2) diligently be a more proficient performer with these talents; and (3) carefully uphold the code of ethics of the magic profession (related to exposure of magical effects and ideas).”

It does not seem to me that the wording focuses on the Bible for salvation, but rather Jesus as Lord and savior who died on the cross as the only atonement for our sins.
While as Catholic we don't tend to use the phrase personal lord and savior the concept is still true. And it is also true that though Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is where we are given forgiveness of sins and thus are offered our salvation. Though that forgiveness is now given most assuredly and fittingly in the sacrament of reconciliation (confession).

While Saints, devotions, devotionals (like the rosary), and Apostolic Tradition. Can help bring us closer to God it is ultimately God who saves and redeems us.

So again it does not seem to me that just in the wording of the statement of faith that the FCM puts fourth is opposed to Catholics.

But also again I have not actually joined then so I cannot speak for the FCM as a whole, or individual local chapters, or individual persons in how they may treat Catholics and the differences in theology that Catholics have.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
108. Still, the Christian faith is not a "religion of the book." Christianity is the religion of the "Word" of God, a word which is "not a written and mute word, but the Word is incarnate and living". If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures."
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/ar......c2a3.htm

This directly contradicts the notion that the Bible is the *only* inspired infallible Word of God.

BCE I will honestly say I tried to find a way to make the statement of faith work, but I must concede. You are right if you keep strictly the words statement of faith a good Catholic could not join the FCM.

Hopefully someone who is actually apart of FCM could speak more into or clarify the meaning.
The thread "Question about the statement of faith required" (which I noticed you found) makes it look pretty clear that such a clarification probably doesn't exist and that the statement, while not necessarily intending to, is against Catholic theology to the point that a Catholic could not rightfully hold the statement of faith.

If a FCM member would like to comment on this issue please do.

BCE

May God continue to bless you and your gifts.

Please let me know if I can help.
I have shared my Testimony as Dr. Or Brother
Laugh at Catholic to Evangelicals.
Over the years I have used more testimony and less props.
Usually the group will give me a scripture to go off of.

At a gathering of Alcohol and Drug Treatment I shared a talk on Spirituality and Recovery.
The Latin word for Spirits(alcohol) is sometimes used to fill the place of the Holy Spirit.

There was a Mother Superior there who was reacting to a bit.
I couldn't resist saying -
She's not heavy
She's my mother.
The audience was of the right age to get a good laugh and connection.

I have also been blessed to share my testimony behind the walls.
Got special permission from a state warden to bring my straight jacket.
Horse Hypodermic Needle through the arm was out.
Love and prayers

Harris

You could join The Christian Magicians UK without any issues. www.christianmagiciansuk.org

To answer the original question, "Are Catholic Christians welcome in FCM?" I would have to say that the answer is a resounding, "NO."

This phrase in the FCM Statement of Faith


is pointed directly at Catholics.

I believe it is designed specifically to exclude Catholics, who were regarded as pariahs in the old American South.

Sorry Opus, I would have to respectfully disagree. I know Catholics are welcomed at any FCM meeting event/seminar/conference/meeting. I have never heard or witnessed anything else since I became a member of the FCM about 1970. I am not questioning your opinion for sure, but I can assure you most of us I'd hope are not viewing anyone of any faith as a "pariah" other than we are all pariahs before Christ rescued us from ourselves. Most of my dear and giving family are Catholic, and they love me in spite of myself evening begging me to share "Gospel magic" at our annual Christmas feast in Ann Arbor. That is a wonderful treat/honor for me personally.

You may have another experience, but I have never heard of that before. I personally have met some of the original FCM Presidents, they were wonderful Godly magicians/performers whose main purpose in life was spreading The Good News. I don't know if that helps, I am not sure who even wrote the simple "Statement of Faith" a zillion years ago- even I was not around then.

So you are suggesting that all FCM members should read "and believe the Bible to be the only inspired infallible Word of God" out of the FCM Statement of Faith?

I am an FCM member, but have never been an elected officer. I know virtually nothing about specific "Catholic" theology v. "Protestant" theology regarding the Bible being the only inspired Word of God. I concede too that Hakaput made a good/valid observation.

So what other than the Bible is "the only inspired infallible Word of God?"

The point is not that there is something other than the bible that is the only inspired infallible Word of God. The point is that the bible is not the only source of the inspired infallible Word of God. In some Christian sects, including Catholicism, Tradition is also recognized as a source of the inspired infallible Word of God.

But, then again, I think that the text is also a swipe at the doctrine of papal infallibility.

The Statement of Faith asks that the applicant believe that the Bible is "the only inspired infallible Word of God." Although you state that, "Tradition is also recognized as a source of the inspired infallible Word of God," I'm interested in documentation from a Catholic reference that states that anything other than the Bible, the written Word of God, is infallible AND inspired; especially inspired (theópneustos = "God-breathed").

For example, even though the Catholic Church highly values the writings of the Church Fathers, per Pope Leo XII the Church does not consider those writings to be infallible. If there is nothing else that is considered to be "the only inspired infallible Word of God," then it appears to me that the Statement of Faith in regard to the Bible is not anti-Catholic.

Try this: https://www.catholic.com/tract/papal-infallibility

First, I believe I made a typo in referring to Pope Leo. I'm pretty sure it should be Pope Leo XIII, not XII. I don't have access to my references right now.

Second, this discussion really isn't about the infallibility of the Pope. It is about what is the "only infallible inspired Word of God." The article that you appealed to really doesn't deal with inspiration. The question here is, what other than the Bible is the "only infallible inspired Word of God"? Are you proposing that when the Pope speaks "ex cathedra" his statements are inspired exactly like the Bible is inspired (2 Timothy 3:16)?

I'm having a hard time finding any Catholic resource that proposes any thing other than the Bible as the "only infallible inspired Word of God."

Maybe we are quibbling about semantics.

I read the statement of faith, required of members in the FCM, specifically to cite a core belief that is contrary to the doctrinal principals of the Catholic Church. I believe that subscription to such core belief is directed at other Christian beliefs, specifically orthodox and Roman Catholicism.

I am speaking of Sacred Tradition, but I am also concerned that the statement of faith is an attempt to exclude Catholics from the FCM.

Regarding Sacred Tradition, read here: http://www.catholicbible101.com/sacredtradition.htm

I am disinclined to address Catholic doctrine any further with you.

If the doctrinal statement doesn't fit, it doesn't fit. I don't believe It's an attempt to exclude any specific group, sect or denomination. There are numerous organizations that have a fairly inclusive doctrinal statements, yet there will always be those who won't feel that they would fit comfortably in any number of those organizations because they cannot "square" their personal beliefs of the beliefs of the church which they belong.

If the FCM is not a good fit -- it's not a good fit.

Please understand: I don't speak for the leadership of the FCM -- I'm just a very involved member. Perhaps President, Steve Varro or another leader who could speak to this could be alerted and comment here.