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Danny Diamond Inner circle Connecticut 1400 Posts |
I am curious what the protocol is as far as learning effects from fellow magicians. I mean, is it considered inappropriate to ask a fellow magician at a lecture or convention, how to do a certain effect? I don't mean an effect that was taught during the particular lecture.
As an example: I never learned CMH from a book, a fellow magician once showed it to me. Now, I either forgot something or the method he showed me was not quite right, because I don't do it right. So, I was at a recent lecture and I was going to ask someone there to show me the real handling of it. Then I started thinking, "I hope these guys don't think I am being disrespectful for asking how to do the effect". What are the guidelines on that? Is it wrong to ask a fellow magician to show you how to do a particular effect? Does it depend on the effect? It seems like a vague area. Do you just limit your conversations to techniques you are both familiar with? Any thoughts?
You don't drown by falling in the water;
you drown by staying there. - Edwin Louis Cole |
Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
It isn't necessarily wrong to ask, but you might get widely different responses.
Some people jealously guard their secrets (why, I'm sure I don't know!). Others are only too happy to share with beginners and experienced pros alike (after all, nobody knows everything!). I realize that this reply isn't much help but it's just one of those things that you'll have to risk (asking, that is). |
Reis O'Brien Inner circle Seattle, WA 2467 Posts |
I recently saw Tom Craven's lecture in Chicago and bought his "Blue Collar Aces" trick afterwards. Of course, I had no idea how it worked. But the instructions were inside, so I wasn't worried. But his wife (a lovely, kind and extremely helpful woman) suggested that I just go over there and ask him to teach it to me. And I couldn't do it! I was so afraid of looking like a nosey little dork that I just couldn't ask the guy to teach me a trick of his that I had just bought and paid for!
Ummm, I have forgotten my original point to telling this story. Hmmm, I'll think of it later. |
Stuart Hooper Special user Mithrandir 759 Posts |
Bit off topic, but Mr. Diamond, why do you say, "I don't do it right." I can understand if you wish to seek out different handlings, but, so far, I've seen very few effects with 'right' or 'wrong' handlings.
Am I right, or wrong? :stout: |
Danny Diamond Inner circle Connecticut 1400 Posts |
Well, the reason I say I don't do it right, is because the move is too obvious. I have done CMH successfully, but I stopped doing it after seeing a lot of demo clips and a few magicians do it live, and mine doesn't look like any of those. The ones I see are all much smoother and it's not just a matter of me not practicing enough. I am sure I learned it wrong and no amount of bad practice will make me better.
But my post was not specifically about CMH. It was more about the general protocol of asking to learn an effect. In this forum, I would never ask someone how to do a trick. So, I always get the feeling of, "Why is it any different in person?". I have only been to a few lectures and conventions, and before I go, I always think it would be cool to practice with someone and learn some new things, but then when I get there, I never carry out this idea because I feel almost guilty about asking someone to show me something. Almost like I am trying to snoop, or obtain information that I didn't pay for or earn. In this post, I was trying to see if this train of thought was rational or not.
You don't drown by falling in the water;
you drown by staying there. - Edwin Louis Cole |
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Here's my thinking on this. It's all in the way that you ask the person. If you just go up to someone you barely know and, completely out of context, say, "Hey! Show me CMH," you will probably get a negative reaction. However, if you know one of the fellows at the club who does it, you can always approach him or her privately and say, "I have been working on CMH. I have had some problems with it. The move looks too obvious when I am doing it. Would you mind looking at what I am doing and telling me what I need to change?"
This kind of approach usually works well.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
Jordan Piper Veteran user British Columbia, Canada 309 Posts |
For more thoughts on this question see the following thread that poses a similar question.
Click Here |
Danny Diamond Inner circle Connecticut 1400 Posts |
Jordan, thanks for that link.
Another question, along these lines... I saw a kid doing the Asher Twist at the last convention I went to. Would it be considered stealing from Lee Asher if the kid showed me how to do it? (I didn't ask him, and he didn't show me, by the way).
You don't drown by falling in the water;
you drown by staying there. - Edwin Louis Cole |
Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
No more than it would be considered stealing to learn the Elmsley Count from a friend or the Gallo Pitch from a friend. On the other hand, if you put out a video or something like that teaching the Asher Twist without proper credit or permission, then you might be on shaky ethical grounds.
Here's a parallel. I learned how to do the Downs Coin Star, ungimmicked version, from Bobby Bernard. The move is in the public domain, Downs is long dead, and I paid Bobby a healthy chunk of change to learn how to do it. Would it be ethical for me to put out a video teaching Bobby's technique for learning the star step by step? I asked J.B. Bobo this question about a year before he passed away. His answer was that if I did this, I needed to ask Bobby first and get his permission. I believe he was right about that. I posed this as a hypothetical question, and I got the answer that I thought I would get.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
JoeJoe Inner circle Myrtle Beach 1915 Posts |
I just wanted to add to this ... magicians have learned effects from other magicians since the dawn of magic - before there were magic books, videos, lectures, and what not ... well, this was the only way to learn anything!
Amazing JoeJoe on YouTube[url=https://www.youtube.com/user/AmazingJoeJoe]
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Mike Walton Special user Chicago 984 Posts |
Regarding protocol of learning effects from other magicians, I do think it's bold to approach someone not known and ask how they "did" an effect. Like anything, relationships have benefits. For example, a couple months attending magic group meetings and some warm and sincere hellos go a long way with giving the minimal respect necessary for such an approach.
Relationships are based on social capital and after some sincere interaction, and possibly some assistance or insight that you've offered first, it will then make sense to approach as you've earned some of that social capital to spend. And I don't believe it's stealing when learning from other magicians. Magicians helping other magicians seems to be the tradition of magic. |
bdekolta Inner circle Texas 1636 Posts |
Danny, why not just go out and buy the routine? Then you won't feel guilty at all about it. If you are going to perform it you may as well own it outright. That's always been my approach.
Bill summed it up nicely referring to Bobby Bernard and the Down's Coin Star. Besides there is a video out there with Bobby teaching it. Not sure you could learn it all from that video. I don't recall the title of it. Just remember Ted Quan showing me a video that had Mr Bernard performing the star. First person I ever saw actually do the thing. I was very impressed. ~ Dan Strange |
MISTER E New user 46 Posts |
Always ask. But be prepared to share something that the other may not know.
In sharing method and techniques, always have this mentality... "An eye for an island; a tooth for a tooth fairy." -E |
meilechl Special user 657 Posts |
Pardon my ignorance but what's CMH?
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Peter Marucci Inner circle 5389 Posts |
Meilechl writes: "Pardon my ignorance but what's CMH?"
No ignorance involved; after all, nobody knows everything! CMH stands for Crazy Man's Handcuffs, a two-elastic penetration that Copperfield did on one of his specials and about a zillion other people have done, some good, some not-so-good. It's become a bit of a cult favorite with some finger-flingers although I've yet to meet a lay person yet who was actually fooled by it, no matter who did it! |
Niko Special user England 599 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-07-11 14:26, Peter Marucci wrote: What! This can be a killer effect! I once talked to a full-time professional magician, the person who taught me this trick and he said it's one of his favourites - quick and easy to do, and it kills. Speaking of which, he taught me how to do this trick, and showed me a few other things. He realised I was an enthusiastic magic student and knew I'd appreciate the help and advice. I took it gratefully and feel it is perfectly ethical. -Niko
When you do something right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
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meilechl Special user 657 Posts |
Thanks for your generosity, Peter. I know the CMH trick, I just didn't know the abrrev.
Niko, I love reading your posts because of your cheerful smile! Where in England are you? I'm in London. |
Niko Special user England 599 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-07-11 17:58, meilechl wrote: Heheh.... thanks! I live in Berkshire... near London -Niko
When you do something right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
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RBerteig Regular user Monrovia, California 146 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-07-11 14:26, Peter Marucci wrote: Fooled in the sense that they thought it was a miracle? No, of course not. But fooled in the sense that they can't imagine a way to accomplish it, always. Of course, I usually use it as an opener when asked if I am carrying anything, so I try to burst any reconstruction from memory by following with something else entirely. Perhaps I've just been lucky, because I know my "work" on it is imperfect. In a vain attempt to throw in an on-topic reference... I would definately say ask, if the context is right, and the request is polite. Now the question I need to find a ready answer to is "can you teach me something I can do" from a (usually younger) member of the audience. I have been meaning to learn a few of the "teach a trick" style of old-n-stale stuff, but never quite get around to it.
Ross Berteig
Wizards in my Parlor |
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