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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » Sharpie Through Bill by Alan Rorrison & SansMinds -VS- Timothy Wenk's MISLED (16 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Yuan Moons
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On Dec 15, 2016, ricker wrote:
This is a 100% RIP OFF of Tim Wenk's Misled. Tim has told me that Alan never contacted him to discuss the rights of the effect and even does not give Tim any credit.

Tim is mad Alan, best you contact him asap.

I assume this is just an oversight on your part. If not, I know a lot about intellectual property law overseas, as I own a software company and had someone steal my source code, and have my UK attorney that can look at this for him.

The guy went to jail for theft, since the UK laws are much more strict than US laws.

So I would contact Tim.... like now, when you see this.

Rick


So true. The jails here in the U.K. are full of magicians that tried to release a similar version of another magicians trick. Better sort this out, like now.
Doomo
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On Dec 16, 2016, MR Effecto wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 16, 2016, Doomo wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 16, 2016, MR Effecto wrote:
Alan, don't worry about this fool. Your 100% right on this.


Ok... That was a bit on the rude side.



I don't think so at all. If Tim has a problem with this let them work it out. don't need a 3rd party getting in this.

You mean like you?
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harbour
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I have also been talking to him and the inventor of MISLED, Timothy Wenk,
"Any reports you hear that I am "OK" or "All Set" re: the Sharpie/Misled dispute,
are unilateral and delusional (AKA incorrect/inaccurate)."
Alan Rorrison
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The gimmicks are different. We have inpartial people who own both say so. At this point any on going conversation are a courtesy.

Sure tim created misled I credit him for that openly... I created sharpie through.

That what this thread is about so let's keep magic moving forward and get back on track
Colin (C.J.)
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I said "Tim, why don't you acknowledge Alan's method is different to yours and let it go?".

He didn't reply to my question.

Mind you, I was on my own in the bath at the time.
Alan Rorrison
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Lets keep it civial lads... we are trying to deal with all this as we go on tims fb page now... lets sort this out..

in the mean time let keep this thread chatting about shaprie through.

you are all awesome
WolfgangWollet
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At Tricksupply.com we considered pulling Sharpie Through Bill from Rorrison/SansMinds from our website but after looking at the actual product decided to continue offering it, we have added the following information for our customers on our website:

“In the interest of full disclosure I am adding the following information: This effect is very close to an effect marketed years ago, under the name “Misled” by Timothy Wenk which was popularized by David Copperfield. Mislead used a pencil for a multi-phase penetration thru bill routine, which left the pencil fully examinable at the end of the routine. The first phase of Misled was very stunning and this release does not easily adapt to the original phase one. The gimmick described here by Alan Rorrison is different from the marketed version of Mislead. Notable is that the Rorrison/SansMinds version does not actually include a gimmick but it is described on the DVD how to make it yourself with relatively little effort. Mr. Wenk claims that his initial idea for Misled used the same working of what is now released by Alan Rorrision and for evidence cites a booklet in which he sort of alluded to the method now disclosed by Rorrirson/SansMinds. Since the booklet is rather vague it is difficult to fully ascertain who is right or wrong. The method of the marketed Misled is different than the one described on this DVD which is why we will continue to carry both (when available).
Rorrison /Sansminds “Sharpie through Bill” in my opinion does not induce the sense of wonder that Mislead achieved (due to it being a multi-phase routine) and I do feel that Mislead is the much better product, the appeal of the SansMinds release is the use of a Sharpie. SansMinds in their demo video is acknowledging Timothy Wenks’ Misled so it seems odd that they would not reach out to Mr. Wenk during the developmental phase of this product
Timothy Wenk will soon re-release the original Misled and I am hopeful that in addition to a pencil version we can also look forward to a Sharpie version by Mr. Wenk which would bring it up to date and which I will fully support when released.
We will review the decision to continue carrying “Sharpie through Bill” as new information develops but wanted you to be aware of the controversy so you can make an informed decision. -Wolfgang Wollet, Tricksupply.com”
WolfgangWollet
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Just to clarify my post....Timothy Wenk is working on re-releasing Misled with a pencil. The part where he would release a Sharpie version as clever as the original Misled is at this point wishful thinking on my part....
videoman
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Misled is the better trick, but the fact that Alan's version uses a Sharpie carries a lot of weight and scores it a lot of points.
You lose the first phase but since it uses an item a lot of magicians already carry anyway that kind of gives it the edge.

Timothy needs to really consider updating Misled to a Sharpie version if at all possible. Pencils are fast becoming like buggy whips and almost seem out of place in a strolling set.
Misled had it's time but you can't live off your laurels forever. Times change and you need to keep up with the times. If you don't wish to invest the time and money in creating an updated version that the market demands then somebody else will and you cannot then claim that they are stealing your idea. You snooze, you lose. That's just how business works.
Alan Rorrison
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During our conversation I have have stated I woudld love for Timothy to make his up in sharpie both privately and publicly.

I think it would be a fantastic idea. And I'm happy the majority looking at this with a leval head and see the sense in it
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The first phase of Misled but done with a Sharpie would make no sense. The first phase of misled is the healing of a hole in the bill. A pencil logical and plausibly can poke a hole through a bill but a Sharpie is logically would not do so in such a fashion.

As for the pencil being out of place in this day and age, people still widely use yellow no. 2 pencils. It never went away and are not harder and harder to find. It's quite recognizable and still appears innocent and organic. It's still very widely used, especially in office environments (I was surprised by this as well assuming we all just use pens now but I've seen them widely used and always stocked at my office).
Alan Rorrison
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I'll repost this here.. this is from a rather long post on face book but I out it here for records.

Hello Gentlemen. I have sat this evening and had the pleasure if reading through this rather lengthy thread. First and foremost thank you to Mark and William who have taken the time to look at all the facts and formed an opinion which they did not mind voicing.

Just as a small side note. I did not ask them to do this and I thank them for keeping an open mind

Now lets get on to the matter at hand. I released my version of the sharpie through bill which is topic of this thread. Tim brought up some concerns about it and in his original post stated that it was an exact rip off of his misled effect implying it was the same gimmick and all etc.

I hated the thought that he may think this so I approached him on facebook pm and we had a chat about it. During this chat I realised that he had stated I had ripped off his effect with out knowing the method/gimmick of my own which I felt was a little unfair but I continued with the conversation to come to a happy medium.

which I thought we had after I explained what my gimmick was. He still felt the effect was the same but the gimmick was different. or at least that how the conversation appears. We went on after that to me praising his mislead and even offering to no only promote his if release a version for shapie with his method but help research and develop it.

it is something id love to see happen.

after this we had a second conversation where Tim had then decided that it was no longer a ripoff of his released mislead but now that after some thought it is a ripoff of his unreleased version which he "alludes" to in his notes.

unfortunately his note hints to a method which is like Just Passin' Thru by Russ Niedzwiecki. which again is nothing like the gimmick I have created here. also as Marc has pointed out "alluding" to a method isn't releasing it. especially when you do not state what the method is... it simply was not released so even if it was the same there could be no way I know. I would encourage you to scroll up and check out that conversation as it explains it well and there is no real need for me to go over it again.

So lets get to the point. Upon discovering Tim was not happy tried to have conversations with him about the subject I even offered up a copy of mines to give him all the facts which he did not accept.

at the end of all the conversations and after I invited him to chat with the producers etc. I stated we would give him as much time as we can to help in this situation he stated "There's a chance they'll do the right thing and give me more than time." Which to me implies he simply wanted to try and strong arm us for some money.

So at the end of all this BOTH gimmicks Tim has released and "alluded" to are different from the gimmick I have made here. This gimmick simply could not be made in a pencil.. its impossible. I have also contacted a few impartial third parties and asked there opinions and they all agree this is different so no harm no foul etc but again I am always happy to have a conversation about it.

I happily invite anyone to come and chat to me about it. Im a very approachable man who tried to keep a high standard in my ethics.

I offered to help time make his method workable for shaprie and even praised the idea.. id love to see it. ive simply offered my gimmick which is different and offer people and alternative.. I also highly praise and credit Tim and even though I feel like I have been some what mistreated in this ill still happily credit his. we all stand on the shoulders of giants after all.



Any one is free to contact me and ill do my best to help at any time. I feel I was very respectful to Tim in our conversations and anyone else will get the same respect.


however the last thing I can say on the matter is the gimmicks are different, it is simply impossible to make what I have done with a pencil but I do whole heart idly credit Tim and ill happily stand on any platform and tell people to look at his.. its a great method for this effect after all.

I have posted this and I noticed a few typos. I tried to catch them all but let me apologise if any got through.. with predictive text some times you are fighting a loosing battle.
JustJoshinMagic
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After reading all of the posts made about the situation both here and on fb, and after having a long conversation with Alan, this whole thing is ridiculous. The method Alan used is not the same as misled. that's first and foremost. Second the method that Tim alludes to in his notes, but never directly states, is different than Alans. While the manner of creating the gimmick utilizes similar actions, it would be 100% impossible to perform Alan's method with a pencil. The fact that everything can be handed out is indicative of that, which you would never be able to do if you tried to gaff it similarly with a pencil. I totally respect Tim as a creator, and if the method for this was identical, I would have to agree with Tim. However, this is tantamount of saying that Kostya Kimlat's triumph is exactly the same as Cheek to Cheek because they are the same effect. Many effects share a similar plot, but that doesn't make them rip offs of each other. Just my two cents as someone from the outside looking in
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BobSled
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As an owner of Misled I was considering buying this 'update' until I noticed it's less than half the effect, you have to make your own gimmick ($20 and none supplied?!), and it doesn't even come with the blessing of its true originator. I'll save my money for something that's not a poor rip-off, thanks.
Alan Rorrison
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It's not a rip off bob but thank you for considering.
BobSled
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Claiming something is an "update" to a famous effect when in fact it's a lot worse, and using the fame of the original without consent, that my friend is riding on someone else's coattails and why it's a rip off.
TStone
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This is the Misled effect using the Misled method. Nothing significant have been added.
The difference is on the level "...but I do it with a blue backed deck!"
Or using waxed cards instead of roughed for Invisible Deck.
Or using brass weights instead of lead weights in Chinese Sticks.
Kaliix
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I am curious if you have both and if you do, I am certainly curious how other people who say they have both say the methods are different?

I own misled and just bought this effect used on the Café. I now very interested in receiving it to compare the two.

Quote:
On Dec 18, 2016, TStone wrote:
This is the Misled effect using the Misled method. Nothing significant have been added.
The difference is on the level "...but I do it with a blue backed deck!"
Or using waxed cards instead of roughed for Invisible Deck.
Or using brass weights instead of lead weights in Chinese Sticks.
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance; it is the illusion of knowledge.
~Daniel J. Boorstin
Infographicmagicreviews
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I am still waiting for mine to arrive. Planning on doing a graphical review on it. Having read the posts the methods between two versions sound very different. But TStone's blue backed deck analogy worries me. If the analogy is correct, isn't it basically the same gimmick?

TStone, can you confirm if the original Misled gimmick works on the sharpie? In that case I'll call and cancel my order to support the original before it's too late..
MR Effecto
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Not even close to the same
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » Sharpie Through Bill by Alan Rorrison & SansMinds -VS- Timothy Wenk's MISLED (16 Likes)
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