The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » Sharpie Through Bill by Alan Rorrison & SansMinds -VS- Timothy Wenk's MISLED (16 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5~6~7~8~9 [Next]
Alan Rorrison
View Profile
V.I.P.
2476 Posts

Profile of Alan Rorrison
V.I.P.
2283 Posts
Profile of Alan Rorrison Send Private Message
Post Icon Posted: Dec 18, 2016 08:05 am Alan Rorrison is on-line Reply with Quote Report this post to forum moderator There are no likes for this post.0
I'll repost this here.. this is from a rather long post on face book but I out it here for records.

Hello Gentlemen. I have sat this evening and had the pleasure if reading through this rather lengthy thread. First and foremost thank you to Mark and William who have taken the time to look at all the facts and formed an opinion which they did not mind voicing.

Just as a small side note. I did not ask them to do this and I thank them for keeping an open mind

Now lets get on to the matter at hand. I released my version of the sharpie through bill which is topic of this thread. Tim brought up some concerns about it and in his original post stated that it was an exact rip off of his misled effect implying it was the same gimmick and all etc.

I hated the thought that he may think this so I approached him on facebook pm and we had a chat about it. During this chat I realised that he had stated I had ripped off his effect with out knowing the method/gimmick of my own which I felt was a little unfair but I continued with the conversation to come to a happy medium.

which I thought we had after I explained what my gimmick was. He still felt the effect was the same but the gimmick was different. or at least that how the conversation appears. We went on after that to me praising his mislead and even offering to no only promote his if release a version for shapie with his method but help research and develop it.

it is something id love to see happen.

after this we had a second conversation where Tim had then decided that it was no longer a ripoff of his released mislead but now that after some thought it is a ripoff of his unreleased version which he "alludes" to in his notes.

unfortunately his note hints to a method which is like Just Passin' Thru by Russ Niedzwiecki. which again is nothing like the gimmick I have created here. also as Marc has pointed out "alluding" to a method isn't releasing it. especially when you do not state what the method is... it simply was not released so even if it was the same there could be no way I know. I would encourage you to scroll up and check out that conversation as it explains it well and there is no real need for me to go over it again.

So lets get to the point. Upon discovering Tim was not happy tried to have conversations with him about the subject I even offered up a copy of mines to give him all the facts which he did not accept.

at the end of all the conversations and after I invited him to chat with the producers etc. I stated we would give him as much time as we can to help in this situation he stated "There's a chance they'll do the right thing and give me more than time." Which to me implies he simply wanted to try and strong arm us for some money.

So at the end of all this BOTH gimmicks Tim has released and "alluded" to are different from the gimmick I have made here. This gimmick simply could not be made in a pencil.. its impossible. I have also contacted a few impartial third parties and asked there opinions and they all agree this is different so no harm no foul etc but again I am always happy to have a conversation about it.

I happily invite anyone to come and chat to me about it. Im a very approachable man who tried to keep a high standard in my ethics.

I offered to help time make his method workable for shaprie and even praised the idea.. id love to see it. ive simply offered my gimmick which is different and offer people and alternative.. I also highly praise and credit Tim and even though I feel like I have been some what mistreated in this ill still happily credit his. we all stand on the shoulders of giants after all.



Any one is free to contact me and ill do my best to help at any time. I feel I was very respectful to Tim in our conversations and anyone else will get the same respect.


however the last thing I can say on the matter is the gimmicks are different, it is simply impossible to make what I have done with a pencil but I do whole heart idly credit Tim and ill happily stand on any platform and tell people to look at his.. its a great method for this effect after all.

I have posted this and I noticed a few typos. I tried to catch them all but let me apologise if any got through.. with predictive text some times you are fighting a loosing battle.
BobSled
View Profile
New user
28 Posts

Profile of BobSled
Why are you flooding this thread with a verbatim copy & paste of stuff you've already dumped here? Are you trying to bury the comments where so many people are pointing out that your version is an inferior, overpriced, unethical rip off? Coincidence I am sure...
Alan Rorrison
View Profile
V.I.P.
2476 Posts

Profile of Alan Rorrison
The post address any issues of people claiming it's a rip off it simply isn't. The gimmick I have her is impossible to make in pencil. I thought it might be easy than typing every time.

So it's now inferior? I'm guessing that imply it's different other wise it would be on par?

Which would means it's a different method and simply an alternative?
TStone
View Profile
V.I.P.
Stockholm, Sweden
702 Posts

Profile of TStone
Quote:
On Dec 18, 2016, Infographicmagicreviews wrote:
I am still waiting for mine to arrive. Planning on doing a graphical review on it. Having read the posts the methods between two versions sound very different. But TStone's blue backed deck analogy worries me. If the analogy is correct, isn't it basically the same gimmick?

TStone, can you confirm if the original Misled gimmick works on the sharpie? In that case I'll call and cancel my order to support the original before it's too late..

The difference is on the level of changing from a forcing deck to a riffle force in Cardiology. I.e. minute and trivial.
In short, it is a semi-impromptu quick fix to a Sharpie which enables you to do the second part of the revised Misled routine (1990), which is identical to the original Misled routine (1981).
BobSled
View Profile
New user
28 Posts

Profile of BobSled
Quote:
On Dec 18, 2016, Alan Rorrison wrote:
So it's now inferior?


Yes it's inferior, there's less than half the original routine with no build-up and it can't be examined. It also costs more and comes with less, you could have at least supplied a pre-made gimmick to aid your pretence that it has some kind of new value.
Alan Rorrison
View Profile
V.I.P.
2476 Posts

Profile of Alan Rorrison
So Tom, just to be clear here sir. have you went from saying that this is the exact same gimmick as mislead to saying its a different gimmick on a sharpie that will allow for a single phase pen through bill. I don't want to put words in your mouth but id be interested in the change on stance?

the gimmick made here would dimply be impossible to make on a pencil. impossible.

Tim can have it all ways here? at first and with out knowing my method he said mines was a direct rip off. Then after I show him the method he says its a ripp of of a method he never released and invented before I was born.. Im sure you can see the impossibility in that. Then he decided to move on and say ok its different but inferior..


what angel is he sticking to here? he cant have it all ways
BobSled
View Profile
New user
28 Posts

Profile of BobSled
Quote:
On Dec 18, 2016, Alan Rorrison wrote:
he cant have it all ways


So you "created" an "upgrade" of an effect that is also at the same time completely different to that effect, but you're happy to ride on the fame and prior success of that effect by quoting that effect - even though you vehemently deny yours is essentially the same effect.

Pot, kettle?
Alan Rorrison
View Profile
V.I.P.
2476 Posts

Profile of Alan Rorrison
Oh my stance has always been the same. I have never said the effect is different. its the same as many pen through bills out there. the gimmick/method to achieve is what I created. I also don't claim its an upgrade but simply an alternative method to doing a pen through bill.
TStone
View Profile
V.I.P.
Stockholm, Sweden
702 Posts

Profile of TStone
Alan, there's no change of stance. You are hawking the Misled effect using the Misled method. The change you tout as "a different method" is a minor and trivial variation that grants no measurable advantages or improvements. That you refuse to acknowledge this is just crook tactics.
BobSled
View Profile
New user
28 Posts

Profile of BobSled
Sans = Without.

SansMinds = Without Minds.

Mindless.

Yep, pretty much sums up the ethics and originality of putting out stuff like this...
Alan Rorrison
View Profile
V.I.P.
2476 Posts

Profile of Alan Rorrison
Id disagree. the Gimmick allows you to pass a sharpie pen through a bill. If what you where saying was true id be able to make the same thing up with a pencil. That would be impossible with the design of this.

so how can you say its a variant method and the same method at the same time. As a nice gesture also Tom. send me the receipt for your dvd and ill happily refund you. The small point I'm making here is I do not believe you have it. I think you are going of what Tim has advised you. Considering there are customers on this very thread who have both and state they are different.
TStone
View Profile
V.I.P.
Stockholm, Sweden
702 Posts

Profile of TStone
Why would I have a receipt to a Misled ripoff?
The abstracted predecessor in methodology is Winston Freer's Linking Rings, which later was used in Paul Harris's Cardboard Connection. The leap of imagination to apply the same behind/in front idea to a pen & bill penetration is significant, and Timothy Wenk's effect is iconic in both appearance and method. Making a slit in the cap instead of the body is a trivial semi-impromptu solution, especially compared with Wenk's final solution with a moveable slit that allows for further phases than only the original Misled penetration.
Alan Rorrison
View Profile
V.I.P.
2476 Posts

Profile of Alan Rorrison
OK in that vain your saying Tim released a version with he gimmick built into the body of a pencil. Awesome this would leave for a pen that the spectator could not handle which which is a step back. we also know this isn't the case as Tim has stated he created this be for I was born which I think was his main point and did not release it. so again I'm sure you can see the impossibility in it being a rip of there.


with my own gimmick the spectator handles and uses the pen in the routine and the gimmick allows for that.

In Tims released version he has build a shell that will only attach to a pencil and would be rather hard to use other wise. with mine I have bult my gimicks into a section of the lid alwaing it to be in play at all times and allowing the illusion of a pen through bill. the gimmick as I have made it would be impossible to build into a pen.


sure wenks gives you extra phases I make no bones about that and again I highly reccomend anyone check his out... but if you want a pen through bill and you carry a sharpie have a look at mine. its a semi impromptu method for the effect as stated by Tom
PRINCE
View Profile
Inner circle
1448 Posts

Profile of PRINCE
Regardless to this debate - it's not very ethical guys to be exposing methods and gimmicks.
Alan Rorrison
View Profile
V.I.P.
2476 Posts

Profile of Alan Rorrison
That is very true. I have as far as I'm aware only done this on this post. feel free to edit that and
i apologise on that front.
TStone
View Profile
V.I.P.
Stockholm, Sweden
702 Posts

Profile of TStone
Crook semantics, Alan. It is not yours to put your name on. You're trying to highjack the paternity of an iconic effect with a minor and trivial variation. Frankly, if this is the level of "originality" in your other work, you should be ashamed of yourself.
Alan Rorrison
View Profile
V.I.P.
2476 Posts

Profile of Alan Rorrison
We have asked Tim to show us where he made this gimmick. The best he can come up with is that he made it before I was born and never released it. Ergo I could never see it. as for hijacking, well ive directly said a number of Times that times is there. Its awesome and go check it out. by all means. I do not say otherwise at any point. IM not saying Tims is mine now etc and never would.

At this point and as ive stated before as have others in this thread and all over the facebook comemnts. The gimmick is different. it would be like saying a slippery sam gimmick cant exists because a coin shell does. Both have there merit and again ive highly recommended Tims.
TStone
View Profile
V.I.P.
Stockholm, Sweden
702 Posts

Profile of TStone
Still crook semantics, Alan. It shows in your posts here where you make your best to portrait the specific as the generic - as if the Misled effect just were one minor variation of dozens. That's simply not true.
You are doing the Misled effect using the Misled method. The location of the slit is irrelevant in the context.
Alan Rorrison
View Profile
V.I.P.
2476 Posts

Profile of Alan Rorrison
I don't believe I do. I speak form a stand point of someone who obviously has both and can see the merit of both again, as other in this thread have done. Ive not played mislead down at any point I think.. I beleive ive done nothing but talk it up.
Tim Cavendish
View Profile
Inner circle
1252 Posts

Profile of Tim Cavendish
How long do magicians expect to have their inventions protected?

In the real world, a patent lasts 20 years.

Misled seems to have two verions, 1981 (35 years old) and 1990 (26 years old).

Seriously: for how long should a creator be able to block others' use?
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » Sharpie Through Bill by Alan Rorrison & SansMinds -VS- Timothy Wenk's MISLED (16 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5~6~7~8~9 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2019 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.15 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL