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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » Sharpie Through Bill by Alan Rorrison & SansMinds -VS- Timothy Wenk's MISLED (16 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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King14
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Guys. In a couple of weeks a 10 year old will expose the whole thing on youtube. And guess what, nobody cares.

If you guys can come up with free energy for the world or even buy a extra Christmas gift for a child that will have nothing at Christmas it would be better than fighting over a bloody magic trick.

Grow Up.
Alan Rorrison
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Man aint that the truth.
TStone
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Quote:
On Dec 18, 2016, Tim Cavendish wrote:
How long do magicians expect to have their inventions protected?

In the real world, a patent lasts 20 years.

Misled seems to have two verions, 1981 (35 years old) and 1990 (26 years old).

Seriously: for how long should a creator be able to block others' use?

According to the Berne treaty: The creator's lifetime plus 50-70 years.
But the paternity rights is supposed to be forever, even after the work has passed into public domain. Even with old greek litterature that is thousands of years old, you are supposed to name the correct author. It is considered bad form to claim that someone else than Homer wrote the Illiad - just as it is bad form of Alan to claim he's the originator of Misled.
Infographicmagicreviews
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Ouch. My order just got wasted because now it's 'exposed' here and my copy is still on its way. TStone I've always have huge respect of your work but what you did here now really ruined it for me. Exposing other's work here is just not cool and not something I'd expect from you. And from what you described and the other messages, I pretty much figured out the difference between both versions. If I am right on this, it's simply impossible to adapt Misled on a Sharpie, which makes the sharpie version original. Again mine is still on the way so I don't know for sure... and I guess I don't need it when it arrives.
Alan Rorrison
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I never claimed I created mislead... we openly Say Tim did. I created my original gimmick for the same style effect.. Please don't try and put words in my mouth.
TStone
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On Dec 18, 2016, Alan Rorrison wrote:
I never claimed I created mislead...

Misled is performed in the video trailer that carry your name. So, you are not selling what the video trailer shows?
gtx magic
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First of all can I just say that as reading through all the comments on this thread as a none bias neutral or member of the jury.

The Last comment from TStone more or less clears the matter up for me. But I don,t agree that Alan is a crook, he is a genuine nice guy and means well in his creative contributions to the magic art.

But when TStone mentions "paternity of an iconic effect" I think that what Tom is saying (please correct me if I am wrong) it is like saying that a stepfather to his partners child becomes his father, but he does not because the biological father is the orignal father regardless of the personal politics or implications involved.

Graham
Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence.
TStone
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Quote:
On Dec 18, 2016, Infographicmagicreviews wrote:
TStone I've always have huge respect of your work but what you did here now really ruined it for me. Exposing other's work here is just not cool and not something I'd expect from you.

I've asked for Wenk's permission to talk in general terms about the methodology in his work.
Alan Rorrison
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A pen through bill is performet not mislead. I don't use a mislead gimmick. logic is lost there saddly..

gtx that's a very interesting way to look at it. I don't disown the father in that analogy at all
Alan Rorrison
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This thread is actualy begining to bring around some good conversation on definitions...
Colin (C.J.)
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Why does Tim keep speaking through others? Seems strange to me.
TStone
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On Dec 18, 2016, Alan Rorrison wrote:
A pen through bill is performet not mislead.

You still insist on portraiting the specific Misled effect as just any generic "pen through bill" effect. It is classic crook strategy - you are not even original when you steal!
Alan Rorrison
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So going by this your saying any pen through bill like just passing through and ae are all mislead? again just looking for defenition
PRINCE
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On Dec 18, 2016, TStone wrote:
Just as it is bad form of Alan to claim he's the originator of Misled.


What?!?!? Tom, Alan has never quoted, mentioned or implied that he is was the originator of misled. You Tom have a terrible habit of making incorrect statements and quoting false quotes that apparently people have said. I thought you would have learnt when I proved you wrong multiple times on your factory blanks thread of you doing this - stop it please. Also the argument is regarding a phase taken from the original misled routine... so where is all the other negativity towards - Astors new release of this effect/trick, just passing thru etc etc - as all the other versions THAT USE A DIFFETENT GIMMICK BUT LOOKS THE SAME IN PERFORMANCE.
emyers99
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I've used Misled for years. Great effect and gimmick. Misled used a sliding gimmick. Alan's version does not. The Misled gimmick had to be palmed off for spectator to handle the pencil. In Alan's version, the gimmick can stay on the pen and tge spectator can sign things with the pen while the gimmick is in place without noticing it. That, coupled with the fact that Alan brought this to a Sharpie make this different enough to me. Tim could probably have the Misled gimmick manufactured to fit a Sharpie. I hope he does because the visuals of Misled are fantastic. The differences between a pencil and a Sharpie make accomplishing the same visual effects difficult. Alan has come up with a nice sollution for part of it.
TStone
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Quote:
On Dec 18, 2016, PRINCE wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 18, 2016, TStone wrote:
Just as it is bad form of Alan to claim he's the originator of Misled.


What?!?!? Tom, Alan has never quoted, mentioned or implied that he is was the originator of misled.

Misled is performed on the video trailer that carry Alan's name. I think that constitutes a quote, mention or implication that he think he's the originator of Misled.
Quote:
You Tom have a terrible habit of making incorrect statements and quoting false quotes that apparently people have said. I thought you would have learnt when I proved you wrong multiple times on your factory blanks thread of you doing this

Ah yes, I remember you now. You were the guy who insisted that it was impossible to perform with Factory Blanks. Since I've performed with it for two years now, your definition of "proved wrong" seems pretty odd.
Tim Cavendish
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Quote:
On Dec 18, 2016, TStone wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 18, 2016, Tim Cavendish wrote:
How long do magicians expect to have their inventions protected?

In the real world, a patent lasts 20 years.

Misled seems to have two verions, 1981 (35 years old) and 1990 (26 years old).

Seriously: for how long should a creator be able to block others' use?

According to the Berne treaty: The creator's lifetime plus 50-70 years.
But the paternity rights is supposed to be forever, even after the work has passed into public domain. Even with old greek litterature that is thousands of years old, you are supposed to name the correct author. It is considered bad form to claim that someone else than Homer wrote the Illiad - just as it is bad form of Alan to claim he's the originator of Misled.


I asked about blocking use of inventions, which is what patents do.

Tom Stone substituted a response about copyright, which is different and protects a particular, fixed creative expression. It doesn't protect a general idea like illusory penetration of a rod through paper, and it doesn't protect the hand manipulations of a magic trick. The only thing copyrightable about Misled is the written instructions. Even titles can't be copyrighted.

What precise aspect of Misled does Timothy Wenk currently claim to be protected?

I've seen him lay claim to the general idea of anything like a pencil penetrating a currency bill, but that can't be owned.

More recently he called his sequence of sleights "choreography," presumably inspired by Teller's "Shadows" case, but Teller (and, notably, a dump truck of money) achieved a one-shot win based on Shadows being registered as a pantomime with artistic merit. It has a narrative, evokes meaningful emotion, etc. Using Eugene Burger's terms, Misled is magic without meaning -- it is merely the adventures of the props in the performer's hands. There will be no protection from the choreography/work of art angle. What other specific claim has he made?

I'm seriously wondering what Timothy Wenk believes is protected, and for how long he deserves control over it?
Alan Rorrison
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I perform my version of bill though.. to perform mislead it would need to be the exact same gimmick. its simple logic...
TStone
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Quote:
On Dec 18, 2016, emyers99 wrote:
I've used Misled for years. Great effect and gimmick. Misled used a sliding gimmick.

Read the first page of your copy of the Misled manuscript.
Alan Rorrison
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The first page that tim has posted. That states no method at all and dosnt even mention pen or lid? would that be correct?
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Right or Wrong? » » Sharpie Through Bill by Alan Rorrison & SansMinds -VS- Timothy Wenk's MISLED (16 Likes)
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