The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Torture (8 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4..17~18~19 [Next]
tommy
View Profile
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
16031 Posts

Profile of tommy
Well, I don’t think it really matters if it works or not. It seems to me the real question is, how far do we go to protect ourselves from potential threats? If we have a plan to torture people to protect the state, then by the same token, do we also have a meticulously laid out plan to eliminate children who may pose a potential threat at some point in the future to our imperialism, etcetera.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
lynnef
View Profile
Inner circle
1352 Posts

Profile of lynnef
Quote:
On Jan 30, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
There are many reasons we should not use torture. It not working isn't one of them.


I agree. It is a moral question. Whether or not the prisoners at Abu Ghraib gave correct information; I cannot condone the depravity to which they were subjected. Lynn
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
20394 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
Quote:
On Jan 30, 2017, lynnef wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 30, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
There are many reasons we should not use torture. It not working isn't one of them.


I agree. It is a moral question. Whether or not the prisoners at Abu Ghraib gave correct information; I cannot condone the depravity to which they were subjected. Lynn


I have never found non political facts on what did or didn't happen so I don't know what happened.

But we are on the same page basically.

I also should say that I do not really think the "ticking time bomb" scenario applies as a reason for torture either. Just sayin.

But I will say this which sort of applies from a former life. While as a society we can not condone this, there are jobs that need to be done which we do not fully understand. Keeping our country safe is one of those none of us quite understand the scope. Judgement is tough because we all think we have all the answers. Trust me we don't.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
landmark
View Profile
Inner circle
within a triangle
4930 Posts

Profile of landmark
Quote:
to avoid the more difficult moral question


On the contrary, and I say this without any pleasure, it's a very simple moral question. It takes quite a bit of sophistry to turn it into a difficult moral question. It's a sad commentary on where we are right now, that it is seen as a difficult moral question.
LobowolfXXX
View Profile
Inner circle
La Famiglia
1191 Posts

Profile of LobowolfXXX
Quote:
On Jan 30, 2017, landmark wrote:
Quote:
to avoid the more difficult moral question


On the contrary, and I say this without any pleasure, it's a very simple moral question. It takes quite a bit of sophistry to turn it into a difficult moral question. It's a sad commentary on where we are right now, that it is seen as a difficult moral question.


I'm not sure whether you overlooked or ignored the word "more" in my post, but imo, it takes a great deal of sophistry to argue that whether or not it works is irrelevant to the moral calculus.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
tommy
View Profile
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
16031 Posts

Profile of tommy
If history as taught us anything it is that the people need protecting as much from their own authorities as anything else. Everybody is a potential terrorist, including Modena according to some.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Jonathan Townsend
View Profile
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
27097 Posts

Profile of Jonathan Townsend
As long as Pascal's wager has leverage over a fulcrum of vanity...

In the mean time if we have folks who like to inflict suffering... do you really care if others see it as a sad excuse? I don't like the scary version of hickory-dickery where "if the clock strikes one and nobody cut the mouse's tail the world will end" fantasy.

When the wind blows...
...to all the coins I've dropped here
tommy
View Profile
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
16031 Posts

Profile of tommy
I don’t think they would get much out of Jon they could understand. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
landmark
View Profile
Inner circle
within a triangle
4930 Posts

Profile of landmark
Quote:
On Jan 30, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 30, 2017, landmark wrote:
Quote:
to avoid the more difficult moral question


On the contrary, and I say this without any pleasure, it's a very simple moral question. It takes quite a bit of sophistry to turn it into a difficult moral question. It's a sad commentary on where we are right now, that it is seen as a difficult moral question.


I'm not sure whether you overlooked or ignored the word "more" in my post, but imo, it takes a great deal of sophistry to argue that whether or not it works is irrelevant to the moral calculus.


True, I was not addressing the "more," in your comment and it wasn't your position that I was criticizing; rather using it as a springboard to argue against the new century's attempt to reinstate torture on moral grounds. Dershowitz and his ilk are good examples.

But I certainly don't agree that the effectiveness or non-effectiveness of torture has anything whatsoever to do with its morality. It's like arguing whether rape gives pleasure in deciding its morality. There are things human beings must never do to other human beings.

As an aside, I think most here are addressing the effectiveness of torture as an interrogation tool. That has never been its main purpose. Its purpose on the state level is almost always to terrorize and to assert power over a resisting colony.
Jonathan Townsend
View Profile
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
27097 Posts

Profile of Jonathan Townsend
Quote:
On Jan 30, 2017, tommy wrote:
I don’t think they would get much out of Jon they could understand. Smile


The notions I address are very simple and likely obvious-by-inspection once you accept the possibility of socially sanctioned delusions and their use to elicit rancor.

Ticking bomb, eternal reward, clock strikes one... same thing really = just an excuse to lever the unacceptable against the inconvenient.

Oh yeah something about "Eight kings threatening to do something to ninety six Queens... for one sick Knave" Do you have to condone the sickness or be the sick knave?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
LobowolfXXX
View Profile
Inner circle
La Famiglia
1191 Posts

Profile of LobowolfXXX
Quote:
On Jan 30, 2017, landmark wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 30, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 30, 2017, landmark wrote:
Quote:
to avoid the more difficult moral question


On the contrary, and I say this without any pleasure, it's a very simple moral question. It takes quite a bit of sophistry to turn it into a difficult moral question. It's a sad commentary on where we are right now, that it is seen as a difficult moral question.


I'm not sure whether you overlooked or ignored the word "more" in my post, but imo, it takes a great deal of sophistry to argue that whether or not it works is irrelevant to the moral calculus.


True, I was not addressing the "more," in your comment and it wasn't your position that I was criticizing; rather using it as a springboard to argue against the new century's attempt to reinstate torture on moral grounds.


Understood, and I didn't take you to be; comversely, I'm certainly not "arguing for toeture," other than its efficacy.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Jonathan Townsend
View Profile
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
27097 Posts

Profile of Jonathan Townsend
? how is torture more effective than other means of persuasion? citation please?
(other than sadistic pleasure and inducing fear in others?)

Quote:
On Jan 30, 2017, tommy wrote:
I don’t think they would get much out of Jon they could understand. Smile


Ticking bomb, (insert divisive cultural ritual here), clock strikes one... excuses to lever the unacceptable against the inconvenient.

Is it really acceptable to threaten ninety five queens for one sick knave? Please don't be the sick knave.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
LobowolfXXX
View Profile
Inner circle
La Famiglia
1191 Posts

Profile of LobowolfXXX
Quote:
On Jan 30, 2017, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
? how is torture more effective than other means of persuasion? citation please


Thought experiment:

Andrew stops you on the way out of 7-11 and says, "Please give me $100."

Later that week, Bob has you chained to a pipe in his basement, shows you shows you some boltcutters, and says, "Give me $100, or I'll cut off one of your fingers, ask again, and repeat up to a total of 10 times."

Any questions?

See Bill Buckley for citation.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Jonathan Townsend
View Profile
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
27097 Posts

Profile of Jonathan Townsend
Sorry, you lost me at "thought" and "experiment" - see Einstein about a cat in a box.

Got a citation for efficacy of torture beyond satisfying the sadistic cravings of some folks ... maybe also to offer others a strange viewing experience... pay per view interrogation sessions?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
LobowolfXXX
View Profile
Inner circle
La Famiglia
1191 Posts

Profile of LobowolfXXX
Asked and answered. Read all about Bill Buckley.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
tommy
View Profile
Eternal Order
Devil’s Island
16031 Posts

Profile of tommy
I think we will get more blowback than any benefit there may be.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
20394 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
I do. Not torture like we are talking but certainly beating suspects qualifies. It works. I've seen it work.

Now don't you find it convenient to ask for citation regarding things that are not generally studied or written about?

Certainly nobody had a control group with information and left them alone, and another group that has the same information and got beaten, and another just talked to and compared the results. Nobody ever did a double blind study in what was or was not obtained through torture. It is disingenuous to ask and you know it.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
View Profile
Eternal Order
20394 Posts

Profile of Dannydoyle
Quote:
On Jan 30, 2017, tommy wrote:
I think we will get more blowback than any benefit there may be.


Certainly a logical position to take.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
LobowolfXXX
View Profile
Inner circle
La Famiglia
1191 Posts

Profile of LobowolfXXX
Quote:
On Jan 30, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
I do. Not torture like we are talking but certainly beating suspects qualifies. It works. I've seen it work.

Now don't you find it convenient to ask for citation regarding things that are not generally studied or written about?

Certainly nobody had a control group with information and left them alone, and another group that has the same information and got beaten, and another just talked to and compared the results. Nobody ever did a double blind study in what was or was not obtained through torture. It is disingenuous to ask and you know it.



In my favorite post from one of these threads, someone (who shall remain nameless) said that torture doesn't work, because "If you start torturing someone, they'll tell you whatever you want to hear."

Uhhhhhh yeah. Pretty much what I mean by "works"I
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Jonathan Townsend
View Profile
Eternal Order
Ossining, NY
27097 Posts

Profile of Jonathan Townsend
Could define torture in other ways... including as porn...

in the mean time consider these items together:
http://boingboing.net/2017/01/30/dan-ari......exp.html
http://boingboing.net/2017/01/30/was-thi......llo.html

and ask yourself if these are your Superman brand laudable truth, justice and what you want as moral values as far as others are concerned.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Torture (8 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4..17~18~19 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2020 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.15 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL