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landmark
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Read Naomi Klein's Shock Doctrine, and you will understand the purpose of torture.

Alternately, Google Dan Mitrione.

And as an aside, Bill Buckley's work as a CIA officer in Iran was to help the torture-loving SAVAK. Things came full circle there.
tommy
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All the king's horses and all the king's men
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Feb 4, 2017, landmark wrote:
Read Naomi Klein's Shock Doctrine, and you will understand the purpose of torture.

Alternately, Google Dan Mitrione.

And as an aside, Bill Buckley's work as a CIA officer in Iran was to help the torture-loving SAVAK. Things came full circle there.


The purpose of the torture of Bill Buckley was to extract information. It was exceedingly effective.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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I should have said "a" purpose; granted.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
tommy
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And those who tortured Bill Buckley ought to be prosecuted.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Feb 4, 2017, tommy wrote:
And those who tortured Bill Buckley ought to be prosecuted.


What if "they" claim to have been contractors for a company based in someplace that does not recognize the restriction on "enhanced interrogation" and then given immunity from wrongful death suits in exchange for their agreement to testify against the folks who hired them (who it turns out have long since retired or passed on) ??

OR maybe someone here just want to see those folks suffer and not feel any burden of guilt for wishing or performing harm upon others?

Maybe we'd be better off focusing on our objectives with a little less callousness towards the lives we affect? That's what makes us "better", right?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Quote:
On Feb 4, 2017, tommy wrote:
Torture is or can be a terrorist tactic. If you take a village and torture everybody therein to death, then the villagers in the next village you march on will run away before you get there. You can torture terrorists as a warning to others not to join then.

Of course that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. You are talking about using torture as a deterrent. We are discussing torture to extract information to save innocent lives. Pay attention. Apples and hand grenades.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
acesover
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Quote:
On Feb 4, 2017, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Is the question about obtaining correct information? Or justifying hurting others?

As much as I have discussed it is only about obtaining information. however some here go off on a tangent ... you know, MOVE THE GOALPOSTS. A straw man argument. It has nothing to do with the discussion.

I am expecting Ad hominem attacks very shortly.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Feb 4, 2017, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 4, 2017, tommy wrote:
Torture is or can be a terrorist tactic. If you take a village and torture everybody therein to death, then the villagers in the next village you march on will run away before you get there. You can torture terrorists as a warning to others not to join then.

Of course that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. You are talking about using torture as a deterrent. We are discussing torture to extract information to save innocent lives. Pay attention. Apples and hand grenades.


Actually Tommy is the OP. His original premise was that torture, dismissed by good human beings and recognized as disposable, was "making a comeback".

YOU bigfooted your way into the conversation with your pathetic Jack Bauer fantasies.

I asked you a question, which you are afraid to answer. I'll answer it for you.

You were banned and came back meek as a kitten. The few posts you had the balls to make were all "I may be wrong" and "don't take this the wrong way" and "what do you think about that".

Now, due to recent events, you, and your kind, are all feeling your oats. All the viciousness that is in your hearts is pouring out. Your kind of backwards thinking is at the forefront now, and your beating your chests, yelling over anyone with your "alternate facts".

THAT is why you chose this topic to break your self exile.

Now everything you lack the capacity to understand, or disagree with, is "word salad" or "moving the goal posts" or some other nonsense which you use incorrectly; in an attempt to display an intelligence you will never have.

Jonathan asked is this about justifying hurting others. It's far worse that that.
It's about your desperate need to get agreement so you can get your self worth second hand. Just like you get your opinions, and your "knowledge".
That, and so you can stand the sight of yourself, when you pass a mirror you can't avoid.

IMO.

I'm ashamed that I allowed you to bait me into lowering myself to your level.

It won't happen again.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
NYCTwister
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[quote]On Feb 4, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 3, 2017, NYCTwister wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 3, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 3, 2017, NYCTwister wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 3, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
To say that it has a cause is to admit that it exists.

Unlike the bogeyman.



Sure, but let's just blank out the cause(s) because it makes us feel bad.

Then we can seek justification for our actions while pretending we're the good guys.

Whatever you need to get through the day.

Weather at 11.



No, if you want to talk causes, we can talk causes. Just spare me the "bogeyman" nonsense when we know there are thousands upon thousands of folks dedicated to, and extremely capable of carrying out, the plan of killing as many Americans as possible. Concern about terrorism is not "being afraid of the bogeyman," as anyone with your chosen screen name undoubtedly knows.


OK, let's talk causes.

Do you believe we fight wars for principles?
.

Not generally. [quote]

If not principles, then what do you think we fight them for?
Also when do you think we stopped?

I ask because I honestly think that we did, when we were at our best.

I'm not ignoring the rest of what you said, I just need to take this a step at a time.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
acesover
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Quote:
On Feb 4, 2017, NYCTwister wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 4, 2017, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 4, 2017, tommy wrote:
Torture is or can be a terrorist tactic. If you take a village and torture everybody therein to death, then the villagers in the next village you march on will run away before you get there. You can torture terrorists as a warning to others not to join then.

Of course that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. You are talking about using torture as a deterrent. We are discussing torture to extract information to save innocent lives. Pay attention. Apples and hand grenades.


Actually Tommy is the OP. His original premise was that torture, dismissed by good human beings and recognized as disposable, was "making a comeback".

YOU bigfooted your way into the conversation with your pathetic Jack Bauer fantasies.

I asked you a question, which you are afraid to answer. I'll answer it for you.

You were banned and came back meek as a kitten. The few posts you had the balls to make were all "I may be wrong" and "don't take this the wrong way" and "what do you think about that".

Now, due to recent events, you, and your kind, are all feeling your oats. All the viciousness that is in your hearts is pouring out. Your kind of backwards thinking is at the forefront now, and your beating your chests, yelling over anyone with your "alternate facts".

THAT is why you chose this topic to break your self exile.

Now everything you lack the capacity to understand, or disagree with, is "word salad" or "moving the goal posts" or some other nonsense which you use incorrectly; in an attempt to display an intelligence you will never have.

Jonathan asked is this about justifying hurting others. It's far worse that that.
It's about your desperate need to get agreement so you can get your self worth second hand. Just like you get your opinions, and your "knowledge".
That, and so you can stand the sight of yourself, when you pass a mirror you can't avoid.

IMO.

I'm ashamed that I allowed you to bait me into lowering myself to your level.

It won't happen again.


I was banned a long time ago and that ban has expired a long time ago. I was able to come back a long time ago but decided not to because of people such as yourself who believe their's is the only opinion that counts.

You may call it meek. I just call it beieng civil whcn I came back. However I innoway viiolated any rule in what I have posted here. If you are not able to read other people'sopinions I strongly suggest you stay away from discussioin forums as they may not be for you.

As I said I expected an Ad hominem attack and sure as heck it came from no one else but yourself. No surprise there.

(I am not sure but is this comment of yours suposed to be a threat? (I'm ashamed that I allowed you to bait me into lowering myself to your level. It won't happen again.) It is actualy rather amusing. I guess when you get into a discussion and get your rearend handed to you, you feel you were baitted into a discussion. All I did was give you my opinion. I am not tryingto convince you of anything. It is my opinion.

You can and I am sure you will go on believing anything you want. I really don't care. However if you insist in telling me my view is wrong I will definitely correct your errenous position on the matter. Othewise I feel I have said all I need to say on this and have made my view perfectly clear. As I have said before this is only a magic forum where we are discussing different views on a hot button topic. Nothing more. Don't make such a big deal out of it. It does not mean that much to anyone.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
LobowolfXXX
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[quote]On Feb 4, 2017, NYCTwister wrote:
[quote]On Feb 4, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 3, 2017, NYCTwister wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 3, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 3, 2017, NYCTwister wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 3, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
To say that it has a cause is to admit that it exists.

Unlike the bogeyman.



Sure, but let's just blank out the cause(s) because it makes us feel bad.

Then we can seek justification for our actions while pretending we're the good guys.

Whatever you need to get through the day.

Weather at 11.



No, if you want to talk causes, we can talk causes. Just spare me the "bogeyman" nonsense when we know there are thousands upon thousands of folks dedicated to, and extremely capable of carrying out, the plan of killing as many Americans as possible. Concern about terrorism is not "being afraid of the bogeyman," as anyone with your chosen screen name undoubtedly knows.


OK, let's talk causes.

Do you believe we fight wars for principles?
.

Not generally.
Quote:


If not principles, then what do you think we fight them for?
Also when do you think we stopped?

I ask because I honestly think that we did, when we were at our best.

I'm not ignoring the rest of what you said, I just need to take this a step at a time.


Generally speaking, I don't know that's we ever did. I think they've pretty much always been about our rational self-interest.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Feb 4, 2017, NYCTwister wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 4, 2017, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 4, 2017, tommy wrote:
Torture is or can be a terrorist tactic. If you take a village and torture everybody therein to death, then the villagers in the next village you march on will run away before you get there. You can torture terrorists as a warning to others not to join then.

Of course that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. You are talking about using torture as a deterrent. We are discussing torture to extract information to save innocent lives. Pay attention. Apples and hand grenades.


Actually Tommy is the OP. His original premise was that torture, dismissed by good human beings and recognized as disposable, was "making a comeback".

YOU bigfooted your way into the conversation with your pathetic Jack Bauer fantasies.

I asked you a question, which you are afraid to answer. I'll answer it for you.

You were banned and came back meek as a kitten. The few posts you had the balls to make were all "I may be wrong" and "don't take this the wrong way" and "what do you think about that".

Now, due to recent events, you, and your kind, are all feeling your oats. All the viciousness that is in your hearts is pouring out. Your kind of backwards thinking is at the forefront now, and your beating your chests, yelling over anyone with your "alternate facts".

THAT is why you chose this topic to break your self exile.

Now everything you lack the capacity to understand, or disagree with, is "word salad" or "moving the goal posts" or some other nonsense which you use incorrectly; in an attempt to display an intelligence you will never have.

Jonathan asked is this about justifying hurting others. It's far worse that that.
It's about your desperate need to get agreement so you can get your self worth second hand. Just like you get your opinions, and your "knowledge".
That, and so you can stand the sight of yourself, when you pass a mirror you can't avoid.

IMO.

I'm ashamed that I allowed you to bait me into lowering myself to your level.

It won't happen again.



We've had "alternative facts" for a long time; you just couldn't tell, because my wife and I didn't throw bricks through store windows or light cars on fire when we weren't able to keep the healthcare plan we had and liked. So now we have new people making them up, new cheerleaders, and a different major news network as the primary propaganda arms. Meet the new boss..guess what?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
NYCTwister
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I know. Same as the old boss.

I'm not a liberal.

I like to think I'm an American, but they tell me I HAVE to pick a side.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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Hey, don't believe that last part!
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Dannydoyle
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Alternative facts used to be called spin.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Jonathan Townsend
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Wait a sec...videodrome is real? The network news is child friendly advertisements for clay room events...and here in the USA basic cable does not include the punishment channels with the seasons hits "sing or else", "dismemberment", "name, place or sting" it's urgent now" and "slash n burn".

Trivial pursuit without cards.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
NYCTwister
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[quote]On Feb 5, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
[quote]On Feb 4, 2017, NYCTwister wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 4, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 3, 2017, NYCTwister wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 3, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 3, 2017, NYCTwister wrote:
Quote:
On Feb 3, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
To say that it has a cause is to admit that it exists.

Unlike the bogeyman.



Sure, but let's just blank out the cause(s) because it makes us feel bad.

Then we can seek justification for our actions while pretending we're the good guys.

Whatever you need to get through the day.

Weather at 11.



No, if you want to talk causes, we can talk causes. Just spare me the "bogeyman" nonsense when we know there are thousands upon thousands of folks dedicated to, and extremely capable of carrying out, the plan of killing as many Americans as possible. Concern about terrorism is not "being afraid of the bogeyman," as anyone with your chosen screen name undoubtedly knows.


OK, let's talk causes.

Do you believe we fight wars for principles?
.

Not generally.
Quote:


If not principles, then what do you think we fight them for?
Also when do you think we stopped?

I ask because I honestly think that we did, when we were at our best.

I'm not ignoring the rest of what you said, I just need to take this a step at a time.


Generally speaking, I don't know that's we ever did. I think they've pretty much always been about our rational self-interest.


I have to disagree. Spending trillions on wars we can't win while our infrastructure needs repair, our education system can't get Johnny to be able to read, children go hungry, etc. doesn't seem like our rational self interest. (Cute btw Smile )

If the war is winnable, then it's pretty pathetic, imo, that we haven't; given our 50 to 1 advantage, or whatever the ridiculous ratio is these days.

You're right that we can't get to deep into it without risking time in the hole. (Though the hole isn't too bad, as long as there's internet, and snacks,)
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
Dannydoyle
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Do you think you can just shift money from war to infrastructure easily?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Feb 5, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Do you think you can just shift money from war to infrastructure easily?


Apparently not.

But when the Pentagon basically laughs off the loss of sixty two billion, and spends 1.5 trillion on a plane that may never fly, I'm sure we could figure it out.

If we wanted too that is.

We seem to be too busy fighting them "over there" to care. I always thought the purpose of the military was to repel foreign invaders. I haven't seen anything about ISIS attacking New Jersey in a row boat.

This is getting too far away from the topic to be able to connect it back without too many contortions.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
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