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Dannydoyle
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Ok I can speak from experience.

If they know the truth is what will stop you then that is what you get.

It is about getting accurate information, being able to corroborate that info and knowing when you have it all.

Randomly torturing someone on the off chance they have information is not effective. But randomly questioning people in the off chance they have information is not effective either.

Yes they tell you what you want to hear, the truth. As LobowolfXXX points out it works.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Jan 30, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Asked and answered. Read all about Bill Buckley.


That's a plea to use American patriotism to ignore other issues.

That sliding feeling is loss of moral high ground. It's not a good feeling.
Pretend you're in someone else's shoes and imagine what you'd see as moral/useful/laudable.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
ed rhodes
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Quote:
On Jan 30, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 30, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
I do. Not torture like we are talking but certainly beating suspects qualifies. It works. I've seen it work.

Now don't you find it convenient to ask for citation regarding things that are not generally studied or written about?

Certainly nobody had a control group with information and left them alone, and another group that has the same information and got beaten, and another just talked to and compared the results. Nobody ever did a double blind study in what was or was not obtained through torture. It is disingenuous to ask and you know it.



In my favorite post from one of these threads, someone (who shall remain nameless) said that torture doesn't work, because "If you start torturing someone, they'll tell you whatever you want to hear."

Uhhhhhh yeah. Pretty much what I mean by "works"I


I understand your point, I don't think you understand the point of the person making the post.

A person being tortured will tell you what he/she thinks you want to hear whether it's true or not.
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LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Jan 30, 2017, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 30, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Asked and answered. Read all about Bill Buckley.


That's a plea to use American patriotism to ignore other issues.

No, it's an invitation to quit pontificating and theorizing and learn from history what actually happened when
Buckley, a C.I.A. Station Chief, was captured and subject to torture. Patriotism has nothing to do with it.


Quote:
That sliding feeling is loss of moral high ground. It's not a good feeling.
I have no idea what you're talking about here, but that's hardly unusual.
Quote:
Pretend you're in someone else's shoes and imagine what you'd see as moral/useful/laudable.


Ohhhhh..so now you want to host a thought experiment? lol
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Jan 30, 2017, ed rhodes wrote:
... A person being tortured will tell you what he/she thinks you want to hear whether it's true or not.

or at least what they think will stop the pain inducing behavior. That confession scene in 1984 where Winston makes a confession ...

:(

dreadful topic.

somewhat explored in Watt's story Blindsight where they are trying to learn from the two captured scramblers.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Jan 30, 2017, ed rhodes wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 30, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 30, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
I do. Not torture like we are talking but certainly beating suspects qualifies. It works. I've seen it work.

Now don't you find it convenient to ask for citation regarding things that are not generally studied or written about?

Certainly nobody had a control group with information and left them alone, and another group that has the same information and got beaten, and another just talked to and compared the results. Nobody ever did a double blind study in what was or was not obtained through torture. It is disingenuous to ask and you know it.



In my favorite post from one of these threads, someone (who shall remain nameless) said that torture doesn't work, because "If you start torturing someone, they'll tell you whatever you want to hear."

Uhhhhhh yeah. Pretty much what I mean by "works"I


I understand your point, I don't think you understand the point of the person making the post.

A person being tortured will tell you what he/she thinks you want to hear whether it's true or not.


No. They will tell the truth IF that is what will stop the torture.

Why do you continue to say things that you just have no experience with?

The issue is to get the subject to know that it is the truth you want to hear. They think you want to hear the truth and they tell you that truth.

Oddly enough you ate MAKING THE CASE for torture, while you think you are making a brilliant argument against it. I love irony.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
acesover
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Don't we use torture already as a way to get information? Let me explain what I mean. How many times have you heard that a criminal will not give up information and they are threatened with a long prison term, or possibly the death penalty (if said crime warrants it) which in of itself is torture in both instances. Of course you call it something different but it is torture none the less that can be avoided if they give up certain information. In other words not being tortured. The threat of torture is in of itself torture. So I am just asking. What is the difference of taking torture off the table (prison time, death penalty) for information, or performing bodily harm on them immediately in the long run both are forms of torture. Perhaps we feel that one is more PC. I am not condoning torture here nor am I rejecting it. Just asking a question that I believe that it is already used but we turn a blind eye to it because we don't call it torture. I do believe that if one is sentenced to death with the real possibility of it being carried out and a date set that is definitely torture. Just as I feel that if one is threatened with imprisonment for 50 years that 10 years looks a heck of a lot better than the torture of probably never seeing the outside again. So taking it off the table is just not going through with said torture. Is there really difference? Not arguing, just asking your opinions.

I know it was torture reading a post this long. Smile
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Dannydoyle
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I guess it is a matter of degree. Less prison, no prosecution of friends or relatives, no death penalty, are all threats to one degree or another. Long prison terms amount to physical punishment and psychological punishment. All legal and all used every minute of every day by "civilized governments" all over the globe.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Jan 30, 2017, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 30, 2017, ed rhodes wrote:
... A person being tortured will tell you what he/she thinks you want to hear whether it's true or not.

or at least what they think will stop the pain inducing behavior. That confession scene in 1984 where Winston makes a confession ...

:(

dreadful topic.

somewhat explored in Watt's story Blindsight where they are trying to learn from the two captured scramblers.



The sliding feeling is you realizing that there was more than one person named William Buckley.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Jan 30, 2017, ed rhodes wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 30, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 30, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
I do. Not torture like we are talking but certainly beating suspects qualifies. It works. I've seen it work.

Now don't you find it convenient to ask for citation regarding things that are not generally studied or written about?

Certainly nobody had a control group with information and left them alone, and another group that has the same information and got beaten, and another just talked to and compared the results. Nobody ever did a double blind study in what was or was not obtained through torture. It is disingenuous to ask and you know it.



In my favorite post from one of these threads, someone (who shall remain nameless) said that torture doesn't work, because "If you start torturing someone, they'll tell you whatever you want to hear."

Uhhhhhh yeah. Pretty much what I mean by "works"I


I understand your point, I don't think you understand the point of the person making the post.

A person being tortured will tell you what he/she thinks you want to hear whether it's true or not.




I understood it; however, I did not agree with it.

As Danny has pointed out,
1) If you want to know the truth, therefore, they'll tell you the truth; and
2) From the standpoint of effectiveness, it's specious to address situations where the person tortured doesn't know the information being sought, because in that situation, no other method will work, either.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Dannydoyle
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That sounds way smarter than the way I said it.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
LobowolfXXX
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Nahhhh
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
landmark
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Quote:
2) From the standpoint of effectiveness, it's specious to address situations where the person tortured doesn't know the information being sought, because in that situation, no other method will work, either.


Umm...except for the little matter of the crushed testicles.

And for the dead bodies in Guantanamo and other black sites, clearly the torture wasn't effective. We'll never know if they knew the truth or not.

This is really starting to be an awful discussion. Sorry, but I can't imagine a reason for arguing for the effectiveness of torture other than to eventually approve its use.
NYCTwister
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Exactly.

The only reason a civilized society would ask the question is to seek a moral justification to commit atrocities.

Any society which uses torture, or even contemplates it's use, has abdicated the moral high ground.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
Slim King
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I remember when they were capturing and torturing our soldiers in Viet Nam. Our soldiers were expected to hold out under torture as long as they could but it was inevitable that they would crack. Torture works. But torture is wrong. If we become as bad as the bad guys than what's the difference?
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NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Jan 31, 2017, Slim King wrote:
I remember when they were capturing and torturing our soldiers in Viet Nam. Our soldiers were expected to hold out under torture as long as they could but it was inevitable that they would crack. Torture works. But torture is wrong. If we become as bad as the bad guys than what's the difference?


Without resorting to jingoism, what's the difference between us and the "bad guys"?
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
Salguod Nairb
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I think most people have come under the delusion that we have actually evolved over the last 1000 years or so.

We have become more... socially aware, if I had to give it a name, but that is all.

Other than that we are the same people;at the core, that walked the earth 2000 years ago.
We shall meet in the place where there is no darkness...
NYCTwister
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True, but given all we've learned that shouldn't be.

So why do do you think that is?
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
Salguod Nairb
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Gut instinct, knee jerk reactions, flee or fight, stranger danger, or any other genetic traits that are hard wired into us.


No matter how hard I strive to become a rational, calm, intelligent being... at the core I will always be a fearful violent creature.

So what do we do? We become delusional; which coincidently allows us to take the high road.

It's like buying meat at the grocery. To us it is clean, self-contained, cellophane wrapped, and labeled for later consumption.

No one like to think about the process it took to get there...
We shall meet in the place where there is no darkness...
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On Jan 31, 2017, NYCTwister wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 31, 2017, Slim King wrote:
I remember when they were capturing and torturing our soldiers in Viet Nam. Our soldiers were expected to hold out under torture as long as they could but it was inevitable that they would crack. Torture works. But torture is wrong. If we become as bad as the bad guys than what's the difference?


Without resorting to jingoism, what's the difference between us and the "bad guys"?

The ability to consider and express that question - then to engage in multi-level social discourse exploring that question is likely both recent and IMHO a hallmark of potential to be better.

Please, can we have some more?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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