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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Matters of right and wrong are right and wrong independent of other factors. If 1 or 10 or 1,000 dies has nothing to do with if torture is moral.
Also what constitutes torture is to be a far more useful question. Water boarding? Ask yourself how many people the United States has water boarded and for how long? If you can get past the hype the answer may very well shock you. I can say it is probably far fewer than most imagine. But is it torture to pour water in a person's face? Yes the definition of torture is the first step.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
Quote:
On Jan 31, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote: You are moving the Goal Posts. Here is my post that we are discussing: So does all of this simply mean if the ends justify the means it is OK? Example: You torture a "kidnapper rapist" and find the victim before they die by torturing the "kidnapper rapist". Do the ends justify the means? Without the torture of the perp the victim would have died and the perp would, MAYBE end up in prison. Just asking do the ends justify the means? Is that the real question? The problem as I see it is we don't know what the outcome will be. If we knew torture would result in saving lives I am asking, is it OK? Read the last sentence. Here it is again: If we knew torture would result in saving lives I am asking, is it OK? If someone knows where said bomb is, and I KNOW they know. I am just as responsible for what happens if I do not do all I can do extract that information. That is what I am saying. No more ifs or buts just that. Either you are more morally concerned over the rights of the perp or informant or you are more concerned about the innocent victims. I see no middle ground. Take your choice and make your decision. Just be ready to defend your decision to all of those involved.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
You don't notice how you have to concoct a ridiculous fantasy world to make your point?
No thanks. The world as it exists is vexing enough for me. In what world do you absolutely know for certain a man knows where a ticking bomb is? Please show me a scenario in which that happened outside of a movie. So even though that never happens let's play the game. You get to explain to all those beaten and tortured and imprisoned and their families why it happened. Why is it only the side you disagree with had to explain anything? Stop using emotion to make moral arguments. Then again you can't use reason to persuade a person from a position they didn't use logic to arrive at in the first place. You make emotional pleas. They are not how we run a country. Yes people die for bad reasons. Torturing some so that others MIGHT survive is what we are always claiming we are better than.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Quote:
On Jan 31, 2017, acesover wrote: 1) has direct bearing; it's just an illustration exploring the question of "the end" justifying the means. Some ends (i.e. recovering stolen property), pretty much everyone would agree, don't justify torture. 2) it's not my argument; it's Dershowitz's. 4) "other methods" would include any information gathering methods not including torture, i.e. whatever ued now...negotiation/plea bargaining, interrogation, etc. The point is that step 1 is not torture.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
Quote:
On Jan 31, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote: My mistake. I misunderstood point #1.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
I apologize for the degree to which I know some find this discussion utterly repugnant. For me, it's a flashback to time spent in my most interesting law school class, Moral Culpability, with the (easily) the greatest law professor I had the pleasure of studying under, Peter Arenella.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
You are innocent but arrested on suspicion of planting a bomb. They torture you and so you confess and moreover, you also name your accomplices. These other people you name are then arrested and tortured and so on. That is more or less what happened in the Birmingham six case. While the innocent are in prison the real bombers are free and no doubt planting more bombs. Torture works eh.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Torture does not work on innocent people. Who claimed it did?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On Jan 31, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote: If you know what you want to hear and like to make people suffer it works very well.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Torture, it works to under the justice system, who claims it does not?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
Quote:
On Jan 31, 2017, tommy wrote: No guarantee that anything works all the time. No sure thing Tommy. As a gambler I am sure you know that. However this case has no bearing on saving people. The deed was already done.
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
How do you know when it has worked and when has not exactly?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
@lobo... It's only when caught, accused etc that the question of whether you would think someone else were being evil if you saw them... meh...thats why we have mythology and fairy tales and humor.
Sins if the fathers, smell of the money, not in my back yard...magically makes it all better. I'm still pondering the trolley question which seems acceptable while under the bus is not.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Quote:
On Jan 31, 2017, Jonathan Townsend wrote: No it doesn't.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Francis_Buckley
For those who didn't read it the first time, this rather horrifying link does a really good job of addressing the "Does it work?" question from a completely non-theorrtical perspective.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Quote:
On Jan 25, 2017, Slim King wrote: Me too. Then I watched 24 and listened to coworkers discuss the show. Then after watching a season with the volume off ... I started to wonder about angst/porn and justification. Then ... well once you smell the enthymemes it's not so simple...thank you silence of the lambs for adding the sound of shreiks to the taste of mint jelly. Pinesol or bleach...the subject stinks.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
Quote:
On Jan 31, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote: Lobo, I'm not sure why you keep harping on this point. You've had something in your signature about Buckley for a year or two. I suppose some people don't pay attention to such things, but I do, because I consider you a friend (though I've never met you). What's up with that? Yes, torture works. If someone knows something, torturing them will get it out of them. So: torture can save lives. The question I have is different. Does torture diminish democracy? |
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acesover Special user I believe I have 821 Posts |
Quote:
On Jan 31, 2017, tommy wrote: What exactly are you asking?
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Quote:
On Jan 31, 2017, stoneunhinged wrote: Again we get to my point and thank you for illustrating it so much better than I do.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Salguod Nairb Room 101 0 Posts |
Torture diminishes humanity.
We shall meet in the place where there is no darkness...
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