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JoshLondonMagic
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On Aug 28, 2017, RobertSmith wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 26, 2017, Mindpro wrote:

As for coaching "is that it's in their best interest to keep their clients in a "growing" phase" I can only speak personally here, but I have students that have been with me 5, 8 and 10 years, as I go that "deep" into entertainment business. I have ten different coaching programs and levels available, most beyond the basic coaching level most newbies, beginners or part-time or newer full-time performers start with. As much as they learn and as fast as they see results, progress and evolve, most always want to continue to the next level. As performers and entertainment business owners it is always a continual growing process, but what I am referring to is advanced levels far beyond the understanding of most performers. This is where income and opportunities compound into an entirely different level for most performers and entertainment business professionals.


You go that "deep?"

10 years? Dude. People can get a Bachelor's, Master's and PhD in less time than that.

You claim to go that "deep," and yet you have no publicly verifiable credentials other than a late 1990s version website.

Help us out here. What depth can you possibly have that takes longer than a PhD program to learn but no verifiable means of measuring said depth?


Sounds like Scientology for entertainers. Lol.
cbguy
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I've been reading through all of these posts here and I would like to jump into the conversation if I may and express what I'm looking for and see what direction this may take. Perhaps, what I'm bringing may be helpful to others or stir things in a way that can cause some interesting things to come up.

First, I want to say, without naming names, I have spoken to some who have posted here, in PM's. I have a great deal of respect for everyones opinion and I'd like to thank all of you for what you've shared so far because it has really caused me to think abut my current situation.

Basically, I am beginning to feel like I'm in over my head. I've got more than $3000 invested in two different upcoming conventions to begin exploring the fair market and to say I'm scared is an understatement.

I've been performing for a bit over 18 years. I've worked in theme parks, corporate events, kids parties, trade shows, cocktail parties, private events, golf course, renaissance festivals and busked the streets. Of all the mentioned arenas, I've worked the longest as a busker and at renaissance festivals. Back in 2006 I dropped everything else and focused only on the things I enjoyed most, which is Busking and Renaissance Festivals.

Last year, I was talking to a friend, (Kozmo) who said it was about time I start looking to move inside. For the record, inside in our circle means not depending so much on passing a hat. Since I love performing outdoors, this also means the state and county fair market would be ideal for me. Now, I have two solid 25 minute shows that I've been performing for years, so that part is not an issue.

My issue is that I just invested a lot of money into something that is in essence a risk and the reason I'm scared is because I'm entering uncharted waters. I have very little direction to go on and as November is quickly closing in, my stress level continues to rise. If I go into these convention and book nothing, which I'm told is a possibility, how on earth am I supposed to feel comfortable doing the same thing again the following year? or the next day, for that matter, all with the hope that maybe next time it'll be better.

Is getting a coach the answer? Is there a way to increase my odds of going into something where no one knows me and coming out with something to show for? I'm seriously in a desperate situation. If anyone thinks they can truly help me, I'm all ears and very open to trying anything, if it can help. I've been told a million times to be patient and while I am patient, I'm also goal oriented, that means I need to see some substance or have something to show for my efforts. So far, I've worked my butt off and still have nothing to show for it.

Now, I'm really looking forward to hearing from someone who's been there and done it with some actions steps that you don't mind sharing.

Thank you so much for taking the time to read what I've posted. I sincerely thank you.
WDavis
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Cbguy,

Change your thinking! You are talking yourself into failure. Why are you looking for someone to give you direction. Your business, your goals, your dream. All a coach / consultant / advisor / etc can do is either help you make a decision on where you want to go and how to get there, but you have to choose the destination.

you listened to kozmo on what you should do, your here asking for guidance on what you should do.

Think through this:
1. Do you want to change your business model?
2. Do you need to change it?
3. If yes, what do you want your business to evolve to?
4. Are the steps you are worrying about necessary to achieve the goal?
5. If yes, why are you worrying? Isolate your fear. Define clearly what your afraid of.
6. Take some actions to counter the fear.

My gut on what you wrote is fear of failure. So stop worrying and start working on your plan to achieve success. Have you made certain what you haves planned is the best for you, your family, your business? If it is then just do it, you've already analyzed it and planned it. If it doesn't bear fruit now analyze why and correct the problem. Farmers till the soil to remove the rocks, sometimes for years, in preparation of planting crops. Your business is no different. Take action.
Dannydoyle
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Great rah rah speech. Let's hope it meshes with reality. Mike has a family depending upon the results.

Too often I see people encourage without thinking about the impact on the very real lives of those asking.

Mike has very real very important concerns.

Can coaching help? The answer really is it depends. And that is not helpful.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
cbguy
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WDavis, Thanks for your response. I appreciate it.

Koz and I both know the street is a hard life because of the many things that we have to depend on to keep it going. It's hard on the family. It's hard on the finances. It's hard on your health. I knew that it was time to start moving into a more secure way of earning a living. All Koz did was give me the reassurance. He's a good friend that I trust.

Do I want to change my business model?
If you mean do I want to be done passing a hat, then yes!

Do I need to change it?
Again, yes, I do need to change it.

What do I want my business to evolve to?
I want to keep three of the renaissance festivals that I currently like working. Which I'm in for life, unless I decide to get out, which I have no interest in doing. The other renaissance festivals I have worked in the past, I declined to sign new contracts for because they are during the busiest months for fairs - June, July & August - and I really want to break into the fair market. It makes most sense to me that if I want to do this, I need to make myself available when they would likely need me. So, I just took the long way to say, I want my business to evolve into that of a fair performer.

Are the steps you are working about necessary to achieve the goal?
Yes! The steps I'm particularly worried about involve walking into the conventions and not landing any contracts. From the way I understand it, I'm not supposed to try selling my show. I'm supposed to build relationships like I do when making friends and nothing more. If someone decides they like me enough to give me a shot, they are supposed to approach me. This is where I'm having a lot of stress because I've never experience this kind of model before where so much is left to chance. Especially when there are already so many other people who do what I do who are established and "in" with the associations.

If yes, why are you working? Isolate your fear. Define clearly what you are afraid of.
The answers to this question are laid out in the previous response.

Take some actions to counter the fear?
I need a prescription for Prozac ; )

Seriously, you are correct in that my fear is that of failure. This fear pushes me everyday to continue sending out emails and making attempts at finding new contacts. I have talked with a few people and I'm probably over-reacting and worried about things that I shouldn't be worried about. However, I've been like this my entire life and if I wasn't, I'd probably sit back and do nothing. So, the fear is my driving force. Moving into the fair market would definitely be the best thing for my family, me and my business.

I always have a cushion to fall back on, because the streets are always going to be there, but I need to make this change.

I'll either be laughing at all of my anxiety by the end of November or kicking myself. Thanks again for taking the time to shed some light. It's much appreciated!
WDavis
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I see,

So basically, the worry is coming from walking in blind to the convention and not being familiar with relationship selling.
So lets fix that, working a convention is the same regardless of the industry:

1. You've registered for the fair,
2. request an attendee list.
3a. narrow the list down to your must meets and start booking appointments with them. Schedule at least 3-5 appointments a day for 15-30 minutes
3b. Invite them to a cup of coffee/booze and have a few questions to ask them. Make sure to tell them your interested in undetstanding the fair market and want their perspective.
4. Basically, learn from them let them talk, and when you come up, mention what you do (don't show it it's not an audition) get to know them as a person connect!
5. then at the end ask for their business card (if you don't have it already) and say if they are interested you will send over a press kit and follow up.
6.Then you schedule a follow up after the convention to discuss their event needs in detail.

A side bit to reinforce your relationship - if you meet someone who adds some value to the people you've met based or would be of interest to the person based on your appointment conversation introduce them to each other at the convention.
cbguy
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WDavis, I sincerely thank you for taking the time to understand where I was coming from because you hit the nail on the head with the root of my concern.

Thank you so much for these insights. These are the details that make a big difference and I can't tell you how much I appreciate that.

I really like the idea of setting up the brief appointments rather than just chatting and hoping for the best. Now, there is a system and I'm really good at following systems to the letter.

Again, I truly appreciate you and your time.
Mindpro
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This is going to be interesting. Are you asking for opinions or actual advice with real answers? They are two different things. I know you gathered opinions so far and obviously are getting conflicting results which is likely leading to your feeling of uncertainty.

Be careful who you are listening to - your time, effort money and reputation are at stake (and in some severe cases so can marriages and family too). Also are you prepared to hear what you might not want to hear?

While I understand Walter's point about talking yourself into failure, I see it more as something else. I see it as a natural reaction of going into new and unchartered waters with an investment that is more likely to not produce results than succeed. I think anyone would have the same feeling.

The real question is why this feeling exists. Besides being new and unfamiliar territory, one of the main reasons is you are going into a new area without knowledge, education or true understanding. Other than a few opinions, some of which may be offered as advice when really only personal opinions, you know very little about the market and direction you are heading. I disagree with some of the even basic advice you've been given.

You tell me, who has the better chance to succeed - the person going in uneducated, uninformed just spending the money someone told him to to exhibit without market knowledge, an actual business plan created specifically for that market, and understanding of how the market works, what to do, what not to do, and "how to play to the room"? Or someone that has taken the time to learn all of these things, create a business plan and business operational system created specifically for this market and its key targets, having an exact approach and business plan and strategy, with a great emphasis on how to properly present, sell and position yourself within the market? Who offers the most to such prospects? Who stands the best opportunity to take a chance on you? Who offers the best chance to get booked?

Seems many elements are missing that I would think you should have in place BEFORE even thinking of spending such money. Remember, many others you will be there exhibiting and competing against for bookings and fair dollars have experience, relationships and established accounts already. Just as a beginner you are an underdog with little or minimal chance for results.

I say this not to freak you out or to discourage you, but to paint you a true perspective of what you are truly going into and up against. I have been booking the fair market since 1976. Through the boom of the 80s and 90s and yes, even still today with several of our acts. It is a good ol' boy market place. You need to have a structured strategy and game plan of how to approach this and fit in.

You have spent money and committed yourself. This is different than investing in yourself. Personally I would have taken the $3000 and got a proper education, training and formulate exactly what is needed to approach such a new market. Now before some chime in with their agendas saying I'm only trying to solicit a new coaching student, this is not the case. I didn't say me, but someone who can truly help you and provide you exactly what you need to do this properly and effectively from the industry perspective. If I happen to be one of those people that fit that bill, well so be it, it's your lucky day, lol.

Seriously, do you see my point? How can you (or anyone) realistically think they can start to approach and be a part of a new market blindly, without market knowledge and operational guidance, but rather just throw yourself in the ring "and see what happens". That's a crapshoot with your money. Then be told "not to sell"? I guess you are truly there only to be on exhibit and "network" I bet.

I know you've listened to some podcasts and probably talked to some other fair performers and maybe even a couple of fair managers or contacts. Again good for some personal opinions and maybe a little insight, but in no way a formal education. The best you will get is what they feel has worked for them or what they "feel might be some helpful information. Their money and family is not at stake.

Yes it is easy to see you are likely in over your head for just the reasons explained above. The question is what to do about it now. Sure you've been performing for 18 years, but often that means absolutely nothing to new and unchartered territories and markets. It is true, many go years without a single booking at these events, many for just the reasons outlined here. You are not just competing with other acts and artists but agencies that are prominent in the industry, that have many fair accounts already locked up.

At this point you need to learn and learn fast everything you can about the fair market from an industry perspective, not that of another performer or other vying for the same things you are. You need education and knowledge to gain experience, which will lead to reducing your risk and fear, then develop a proper system for approaching and optimizing the events. Usually a three-tiered approach works best.

Also why fairs and not festivals?

I'll stop at that for now. I think you really already know this, which is part of the cause of your fear. You have 90 days to pull something off. The general information you've acquired will help you only minimally. It got you into the situation you are currently in. So the question is, now what?
cbguy
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Mindpro, I will be sending you a PM in the next few minutes.
Dannydoyle
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On Aug 31, 2017, WDavis wrote:
I see,

So basically, the worry is coming from walking in blind to the convention and not being familiar with relationship selling.
So lets fix that, working a convention is the same regardless of the industry:



This is perhaps the MOST expensive advice I have ever seen written on this board.

Hopefully Robert will chime in.

But it seriously is not as easy as take them out for coffee.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
charliecheckers
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Cbguy- thanks for your post. It illustrates so well the need to have sound advice. It also shows how one cannot count on friends and acquaintances unless they happen to be great teachers. Just being a successful performer does not qualify them (in my opinion) to lead you on a journey into the unknown.

There are so many questions I would want answered, the first one being: "Is my show truly of the length, content and quality of what fairs desire? Do I have the proper materials necessary to effectively promote it? If not, can I afford to create them? Do I know how to engage with potential buyers that demonstrates confidence in my ability to deliver to their expectations? That includes asking the right questions that show interest without exposing my lack of experience.

Of course many have been successful moving into the fair market without formal advice, but often pay a high price of years of acquired experience.

Mindoro breaks it down so well. I also really appreciate Danny's sobering comments. I also think it is important to have varied opinions here. It allows for great discussion. If we focus more on challenging ideas and opinions and less on personal attacks, there would be better conversation, less perceived need for "PM's" and things that take away from that which we all learn from. I hope those whose contributions have been challaged continue with this discussion in a way that moves it forward.
cbguy
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Charlie Checkers, I did get some quality help from some people. The problem is they are busy doing their thing that they don't really have time to give me that I need. I'm totally okay with that, but I am willing to pay someone who can help & guide me in the right direction.

I already know that both of my shows are the quality, length and content that fairs want. I also know that I have the proper materials to promote it and what I don't have I can create or have created.

Now, engaging with the prospective buyers, here is where it gets interesting and different from anything I've ever dealt with in the past. I have patience. That's not an issue. The issue is wanting to know that the steps I'm taking are the right steps and moving me in the right direction to enter a new market that I want to be a part of for the next 30 years. I do not want to be doing things just to do them and have the feeling like I'm busy, for the sake of doing busy work. My time is too valuable and I need to make sure the steps I'm taking are right. I hope this makes sense.

I have mindpros materials and have used them successfully. In fact, I just had another newspaper story published where my story takes up the entire front page of the Entertainment section of the paper and 1/3 of the back page. I sent minder a PM asking for his help as a coach. I know his materials are legit and hopefully he will be open to working with me.
TomBoleware
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Quote:
On Aug 31, 2017, cbguy wrote:

I've been performing for a bit over 18 years. I've worked in theme parks, corporate events, kids parties, trade shows, cocktail parties, private events, golf course, renaissance festivals and busked the streets. Of all the mentioned arenas, I've worked the longest as a busker and at renaissance festivals. Back in 2006 I dropped everything else and focused only on the things I enjoyed most, which is Busking and Renaissance Festivals.



Hey cbguy,

This tells me that you are ready to perform anywhere. Why? Because you will be performing for the same type people that you have already been performing to. Fair goers are normal people too.

What you need now is to get to know a little about those in charge of booking the fairs. My guess is they will want you to please the crowd just like you have been doing for 18 years. Let em know that is your goal. Talk to Robert Smith on here, he works fairs and can give you some valuable insights on dealing with the fair personnel.

I have to agree with Wdavis, you probably worrying for nothing. Reminds me of my story about the little boy wanting to open a lemonade stand and when he asked his friend if she wanted to help she started asking a million questions that really had nothing to do with selling lemonade. If you care to read it sometimes you can here: http://boleware.blogspot.com/2017/08/the-lemonade-stand.html

But anyway, I say go for it, it may not go as fast as you want it to right away, but once your foot is in the door, you are on your way.

Good luck with it.

Tom
Do What Others Do And You Will Become Average

The Daycare Magician Book
www.amazekids.com/magic-downloads/childrens-magic-ebooks/the-daycare-magician/

Tom Boleware
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cbguy
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Hi Tom,

Thanks for your input. I appreciate it. I am friends with Robert and he actually had me as a guest on one of his Vlogs.

I try to tip toe around because I know that not everyone gets along and has different perspectives and ways of thinking. I set my ego aside and keep my cup empty, so I can take in as much as possible.

My website is www.VillageIdiotMagic.com and there is a lot of content there.

I think a coach is a great idea. I even asked Robert about it months ago, but he declined. I understand where he is coming from and I can appreciate it! I will be hanging out with him in Las Vegas in November and I'll likely see Mindpro there as well.

Thanks again and I appreciate all of you.
Dannydoyle
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Lemonade stands are far less expensive and most kids don't have family's that depend on them.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Gerry Walkowski
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CBGUY,

A couple of very quick things from my own personal perspective.

I mainly work festivals, but I have worked a few fairs and have also worked a Fair & Festival convention like the one you mentioned.

From what I’m reading so far from your post here and looking at your website is that you are a decent performer (your one video had me laughing), but you have NEVER worked a fair. Is that correct?

So here are my two big questions that you honestly have to answer:

Do you REALLY have an act that will play well and fairs, and is it the type of act that fair committees are looking to book?

Do you have marketing materials that match the act that you are selling?

I’m not convinced you’re there just yet. I’m not saying you couldn’t get there, but what you’re doing sort of reminds me of the stories we hear about close-up magicians all of a sudden deciding they want to work trade shows. That’s a HUGE leap.

Very quickly, I looked at your web page and had to dig just to find a mention of you working fairs. When I get there, there’s a picture of you working the streets outside a movie theatre and one of you working on TV. What does that have to do with the fair market?

Having worked a fair convention, I can tell you first hand that there are guys there will BIG ACTS and EXPENSIVE ADVERTISIND DISPLAY UNITS. I was completely out gunned at my first fair convention.

You’re going to see acts that carry a ton of equipment with banners and backdrops. Guys that host pig racing.

And then there’s going to be you, with what appears to be a street act. I’m not saying you’re not entertaining, as you won me over while I was watching one of your film clips. Again, though, is your style of act match up to the type of acts that fairs are looking for?

Wish I had more time this morning, but that’s my initial take on all of this.

Best,

Gerry
cbguy
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Gerry,

Thanks for your input...I'm certainly not the close up performer who wants to work trade shows. You make it sound like I'm still wet behind the ears, LOL. I have been working as a busker as well as Renaissance Festivals and my act is what fairs are looking for. I can only say that because I've been told by workers who work fairs as well as one fair manager.

I love the fact that you said that, I'm a "decent" performer but it doesn't look like I'm quite ready yet, that made me smile. What does working the streets have to do with working fairs? Just a guess. Stopping a crowd of people...Building that crowd and turning them into an audience...Making sure they are having fun to stick around the entire show. If they don't like you or leave, then you wouldn't get paid, either. These are things I know for a fact that 99% of magicians cannot do. But they all think they can, in the words of my old friend Don Driver "They need to wake up and smell the toast burning"

...and if I'm on the stage with a captive audience, that's the easiest thing anyone can do.

I have big circus banners, and the marketing materials needed. My shows pack small and play big. I get laughs per minute equal to a Stand Up comedian (3 - 5 laughs per minute). This is something a lot of people struggle with. I've honed it pretty tight.

I also know this game is not about "what" you know as much as it is "who" you know. My acts are not in question, by no means. The way of booking fairs is where ALL of my questions are at.

Gerry, you sound like you might know something about the industry or you just read a lot of books. I'm not sure which because I don't know you. I know the credentials of Robert Smith, he's a worker at fairs. I know the credentials of Danny Doyle, I used to fill in for a mutual friend (Jimmy) back in the 90's at Schullians in Chicago. I know the credentials of Mindpro as I own all of his materials and use it regularly.

I can't say the same for you, therefore, I have no choice but to take your advice with a grain of salt. I hope you will be willing to share something of substance, to give me a reason to give further consideration to your comments otherwise, nothing you say would have any significant meaning.


Best,
Mike
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Quote:
On Sep 1, 2017, Gerry Walkowski wrote:

Very quickly, I looked at your web page and had to dig just to find a mention of you working fairs. When I get there, there’s a picture of you working the streets outside a movie theatre and one of you working on TV. What does that have to do with the fair market?

And then there’s going to be you, with what appears to be a street act. Again, though, is your style of act match up to the type of acts that fairs are looking for?



AH-HA! From the very beginning of this fair discussion and even back to earlier this year with Robert's fair vlog, this has been an initial issue that is VERY misleading. When most people think of or refer to the fair market it is exactly as Gerry does above main attractions, mainstage national headliners, mainstage secondary acts, secondary stage acts, kids stage acts, tent acts, and the eventually down to what Gerry has referred to as "street acts" or grounds acts.

There is SO much magician's mentalities and thinking going on here that are not at all aligned with the fair market. This is the problem when you begin listening to someone who speaks about the fair market without clarification. Danny Doyle gave this issue a distinct and unique opportunity to happen and be rectified/clarified, but as we've all seen, it was not accepted or done, but rather a choosing to just continue an agenda and personal attacks on me instead, not a true desire to help or education or anything to the realities of the fair market.

Most fairs I've worked with book grounds acts locally (however there are a few exceptions). The idea of bringing in, outside acts as a priority or as a main function of these conferences is hilarious to me and has been very misleading. It would be similar to flying in someone from California to do a kids party in Kentucky.

Truth be told, the main events, the things people pay and come to a fair are the main attractions, the headliners, of course the 4-H stuff, and the other popular features and attractions (pig races, rodeo, demolition derby, etc.), Not for the grounds, strolling or street acts.

Besides a lot of magician's mentalities going on here their is a lot of buskers or street performers mentalities going on here, again not aligned at all with the true mentalities of these associations and conferences.

There are several ways to get into fairs on this level that do not have anything to do with these conventions, spending huge amounts on memberships, exhibition booths, travel, lodging, meals, etc.

Simply put, there has been some extremely misleading (not clarified as to the differences and, level and types of acts/attractions) and incorrect information on the fair market, all coming from personal opinions, being passed off here as facts. This is what happens when people accept opinions as fact from someone speaking as an "authority", take it as real, and them begin to make moves and spend money based on this. As Danny has pointed out to Tom many times before here, yielding general non-industry, non-specific advice can be very damaging to someone who follows such general ah-rah advice. Now we see an example of it first hand.

This whole thread was started to discuss coaching. As you can see by this whole fair debacle that has spilled over into this thread, there is a HUGE (I can't begin to tell you how much) RESPONSIBILITY that comes along with being a coach, an advisor, trainer, mentor and consultant, as you are providing insight and information that others are basing their business, careers, life and livelihood on - each and every day. This is a huge responsibility that I don't take lightly. This is why it is soooo important to separate opinion from fact.

We each are responsible for who we choose to listen to, surround ourselves with and what we accept as real or fact. I have said it before, I take a certain responsibility to everyone I work with or coach, and even on the advice I offer here. This is also why when you learn, work and operate from an industry perspective it IS aligned with industry events, industry operations, and industry mentalities, which is different from personal opinions from magicians.

Also is a sub-issue of members lumping Renaissance Fairs in with traditional state and county fairs - again as cbguy will soon discover, two different things, mentalities and approaches. The only commonality is the word "fair" (or faire) in the title.

What Gerry has essentially been saying is education, research and so much more needs to go into this FIRST before jumping in and being aggressive. Some more proper advice would have been to suggest to cbguy, "why don't you come to and attend a fair industry association event or two as an attendee first, to check it out, see what it is, see the exhibits, other vendors, other performers, sessions and everything that makes up these events. To learn and become familiar with the landscape. To take notes, photos, to use this opportunity as an attendee to meet others, begin establishing some relationships, and to learn the lay of the land, the proper playing field BEFORE spending bigger money just "jumping in". To even determine if the fair market is even right or a good match for you". This would have been some sound advice, both encouraging him, yet looking out for his best interests.

One of the things that I get the most messages and emails about is standing up for the unknowing performer (as it pertains to our business operations) and calling out things that I see as incorrect or misleading. If thanks and appreciation were currency, I would be a rich man. I know Danny Doyle gets much of the same type of messages and responses from people as we've discussed it. As someone who has worked the fair market for decades, I am seeing someone here giving out what I would consider very poor, generic, limited, misperceiving and misleading information. Now we are seeing what happens when others accept such advice as real or gospel. It is exactly this that I/we try to prevent here each and every day, and why I was originally asked to be here.

I won't go into Robert's advice and background but by his own admission its taken him 9 years of doing much the same as he proclaims, to just be a grounds act, spewing opinion-based information about the market as if applicable to all performers on all levels. It has been very misleading from the beginning.

I believe cbguy still is accepting advice along these lines and is choosing not to deal in honesty and reality regarding this topic, issue and market. As I always say, be careful to who you listen to! Maybe he and Robert are friends, which I can respect. But he is making some choices that he has to accept and live with.

Now please understand I am not posting this to get a dig into Robert. He seems to be happy with what he's doing and where he's at, which like all of us, that's good for him. You can see his excitement about it. But it becomes a different thing when you begin to position yourself as an authority, offer advice to others, without even any clarification at all in the beginning. I have been struggling with this for a while (as have others I know here have as well) about speaking up as I didn't want this to seem like an agenda towards someone. Not when I see improper information being passed off as fact or authoritative, from someone that admittedly has struggled himself pretty consistently, it raises many questions. When I was told cbguy was following this direction, as several here know, it was very bothersome and almost sickening to me. It is for this reason I am saying this now, because it was in this coaching thread, because I was directly asked by cbguy, and because I've been so proud of the results and actions cbguy has taken as a result of my books and materials. I truly wish him the best of luck with this.

There are soooooooo many good issues to discuss here that could be helpful and beneficial to all. It won't happen because people will focus on the wrong things in this post or even this thread as we have already seen. At he root is performer's not truly seeing themselves at the level they are truly at. All performers are not equal, there are many different levels of performers, and we also see the issue of delusion - someone not being able to be honest with themselves at a foundational level, not seeing how others see and perceive you, and basing everything off of this illegitimate foundation. There is so much more as well to all of this.

We all know what is going to happen, Robert will storm in here chest-pounding, guns-a-blazing defending all of this, attacking and taking jabs at me and avoid the entire meat of the issue as always. The other two likely won't be far behind.

Also cbuy, although it may not be what you want to hear, your 18 years of experience (which you keep mentioning) has little to do when entering into a new professional market. You are essentially taking that performing experience and starting over in a new arena. (Also your performance is only a part of the overall equation). Just because someone has years of experience doesn't necessarily make a transition any easier, quicker or position yourself at an advantage in any real way operationally (which is where the results happen and money is made). Especially with the fair market and it's good ol' boys mentalities. I would lose that perspective right away as it will certainly work against you (some coaching advice as is most of this post). You are entering someone else's well-established home, you are the newbie - understand your position in the equation from the industry perspective. I get performers that send my agencies their promo material all the time saying, "I've done this", "I won this award", I've been doing this for so many years", etc. While it is nice to know (and often more impressive to them) it has little to do with what is of concern and most important to me and my agency and our needs and interests. I often speak about "the shift" when entering a new market or environment, you must shift to that of the fair market if you truly want a chance to succeed. (I will try to respond to your PM later today).
Dannydoyle
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Having buskers tell you you're ready and I've fair manager, and some fair acts, and truly believing you are ready does not mean you are. Good luck. I'm not saying you aren't by the wway.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
cbguy
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Mindpro, Thanks for your response. I appreciate it! Let me try to get some clarification.

1: 18 years of performing experience doesn't mean anything to a new market.
- I understand what you are conveying and that's one of the things I've been trying to get across. Which is why I have been asking the questions I've asked. While it's not 'all" about the act. The act does play a part. That's what people are paying for. You can tell someone their act is not for the market they want to go into all you want. All that does is tells them, their act needs to be changed. Well, "what" needs to be changed? the banter, the effects, the interactions, the comedy? Too many stones are being left unturned in an effort to lock up some all knowing secret advice that's not being communicated. I can tell you a hyp show will fail miserably on the street, but it will be very well received in the renaissance market. So, if a hyp act that's received well in the renaissance market fail in the fair market? Obviously not. You've done your hip act in the fair market and it worked, right? I see hyp acts in a lot of the renaissance festivals I work at. With that understanding, what needs to be changed in a magic act (grounds act) from a rent fest to make it a viable commodity in the fair market?

Do you see what I'm getting at? As a worthy coach, can you shed some light on what is meant by the act is not ready? What are you trying to put a finger on?


2: We do have to back up, just slightly because I have worked a fair in the past. I left this unmentioned because I wanted to see if anything of value was going to be offered or if all the experts would just stand up and speak in tongues without giving anything of useful substance...I worked the Illinois State Fair. However, I did not get that opportunity by way of a convention. I'm choosing the convention as the way to go, now because I'm at the point where I want to settle into this market for the long haul. I choose not to stay in the fair market, only because I took a contract to perform at a theme park, which I kept for a few years. A theme park act needs to be squeaky clean. A Renaissance Festival doesn't. The street doesn't. A fair is somewhere in the middle leaning more towards the theme park model. I've been successful in these markets and I will do very well in the fair market. It's getting into the market by way of the conventions, and that is where my questions are at...not in the act or quality, thereof.


3: Continuing on the topic of the fair market, my issue is not my act. I'm not ignorant, nor am I an idiot, even if I perform as one (see what I did there? that was funny) anyway, I understand way more than you're giving me credit for and if you took the time to ask good questions, you would be in a better position to coach me. Now, I do believe you have the skills to coach, if I didn't I wouldn't have sent you a PM asking if I can hire you as such. Know that minder is your moniker as well as your real identity. I feel you are qualified and knowledgeable and can be very helpful. However, you shouldn't "Assume" from a few paragraphs on this thread that you know all of my experiences, what I know or don't know, etc...You know what they say, "when you assume, you make an a. s. s. out of U & me. If I hire someone as a coach, that means I am very open to their opinions and suggestions. I will take their advice and take action on their advice because I trust them enough to pay them for their knowledge, but I will ask the hard questions and expect that they will invite that kind of slight friction that is known to help the growth process. Just talking about how good someone is at everything starts with a sizzle and ends with a fizzle. I don't need proof of how much you know. I'm already aware of that. I'm looking for someone to help me get to the next level. If you can help, lets do this. If all you want to do is talk about how you can help and how little I know, what good is that to anyone? Seriously! It toxic!

4. Robert has been very helpful. While he's not at my beckon call, he is knowledgeable in the fair market, both as a grounds act as well as a speaker. He puts things in perspective as it is his main source of income. The things he has shared with me have been very helpful and I appreciate him. He has given me action steps that have proven to be useful. I'm now in a position where I need to prepare for the next steps and that's where the frustration comes in. That will change soon.


5. I chimed in here, but all I've heard in response to anything I've asked is huffing and puffing. Most of this thread is fighting about who knows more about what. I stepped in, knowing the risk that I was taking and the possibility that it would turn into school girl drama. Here's the bottom line: I don't give a rats tail how much anyone wants to gloat about themselves to stroke their own ego. You know what I want. I want real help! It's time for the talkers to either put up or shut up. So far, the only person who has been helpful is Robert and that's not just because he's a friend. He was helpful before he was a friend and I asked for help. Let that sink in for a minute.


6: Mindpro, you say you are here to help as a coach. I sent you a PM asking you specifically about coaching. You have not responded to that request so, it seems you are not interested. That's either because you don't want to do it, which is fine, I can understand not everyone is an ideal client or you don't know the industry enough to be helpful to me as a grounds act at a fair. I much rather you say that you can't help or don't want to help rather than just keep going in circles. My time is too valuable to keep reading log posts on a forum when I can be taking steps towards whats really important during that time. If you're not available to assist, I will drop off of this thread as fast as I got on it, to go be proactive, moving towards working the fair market.

What it comes down to is this: If you can help, I'm ready to take action and move forward. If you can't help, then there is no need for a long-winded I'm the all knowing, response. I put my money where my mouth is and take massive actions to make things happen. I don't expect Rome to be built in a day, but I do like to see what it looks like to see the construction underway.
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