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Dannydoyle
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I failed at a 4 wall deal so badly I wanted to hire a bouncer to throw people INTO the place!

Thomas if you have not read my posts on failure and how it can help and all that then you simply are not paying attention, or just want to argue.

This is my single largest complaint about the Café' in general is that nobody ever fails. Nobody has setbacks, nobody ever does anything that is wrong. I am the ONLY idiot in the world of magic who fails at anything LOL.

Read all the books, nobody ever fails. Now listen to the podcasts, nobody ever fails. It is all spin and outright LIES about it and it lures other unsuspecting kids into the same stupid mistakes.

There are SO many threads here about how someone whoever is going to do X show, and it will be great and such. Then when we ask to hear the results, NOTHING. Radio silence. You know full well they have failed and don't have the cajones to admit it.

Then you get the nonsense of "if you learned from it you didn't fail" to try to be supportive because after all we are "magicians helping magicians". (TO FAIL.)

I have in one way or another failed in almost every market I have ever tried. Does that mean I left them? NO! It means I learned from that failure and moved on until I WAS a success. But nobody, and I mean NOBODY knows everything going into any market and Branson is a PERFECT example. But all anyone seems to care about is ego and "I didn't fail".

There is a show in Branson right now that is on the outside a HUGE draw and success. Until of course you realize he is selling ticket brokers $1 tickets. He probably has 500 people a night, and has $800 in costs, but he thinks he is doing GREAT because he has people in his audience that paid a buck for the show and applaud for him. That is terrifyingly stupid.

Don't be afraid to fail. Failure is a temporary state. Or at least it can be.

And to swerve this back on topic, ANY coaching program that does not allow for failure is not one I would want to take. One that does not teach a person how to use failure to become something is not worth taking. Obviously nobody here does that, I mean those other coaching courses and those other people.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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Quote:
On Jun 11, 2018, thomasR wrote:
I'm pretty sure Mindpro was referring to Bill Gladwell. I got value from his online talks. Just because he doesn't know everything doesn't mean I can't learn from what has worked, and now what hasn't worked from him. I thought he was quite honest on his follow up talk about how certain things that worked in Gatlinburg didn't work for him in other markets.



The point is many listen to lectures like this as coming from some type of authority or experience where they have worked out the bugs and figured out what has worked (for them). The problem is it was very basic, quite incomplete and had many potentially dangerous holes in it. I have several students and others I have heard from that had some bad (and costly) experiences from following this limited and incomplete info. So while you and others think you received value, insight, and knowledge, it is more about what wasn't included (or known) that can create the real issues.

Since you are talking about Bill Gladwell, even he said he had no idea what he was doing, basically just winging it. He even kind of proudly boasts about this and the fact that heck he didn't have a show or wasnt even a mentalist when he booked a mentalism show! He tossed something together in a few days/weeks. Again, more or less winging it. This may be fine for him, in his situation and market, but to offer and eventually sell this information can again be dangerous. Perhaps not intentionally, I've spoken to Bill and don't believe he even realized this or would ever do it intentionally.

This seems to happen a lot on the magic community, people offer their limited information thinking it will help someone, not completely understanding how such limted or incompelte informaton can hurt or cause damage to others. Then of course performer's receive and accept this info in their own context, not necessarily as offered, and that too can have consequences.

Also, it should be said that Bill is a professional Salesman by trade/occupation. That is his background and profession. He approached his deal as a salesman, not necessarily from a point of being an entertainment producer or a complete entertainment business position. This is something that is rarely ever talked about. Sooo many, almost all, interested in the concept of 2/4 walling are interested in how to find/get a venue and the type of deal to put together. Hardly ever will you hear them ask about or be interested in what it truly takes and what needs to be in known, done and in place to execute the deal properly for all 5 parties involved. What it truly takes for the deal to be successful on all levels.

Typically what I have seen happen in the majority of situations is onc ethey have the venue an dget the deal, all they want to do is then focus on their show. This alone will almost asure failure.
thomasR
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"Thomas if you have not read my posts on failure and how it can help and all that then you simply are not paying attention, or just want to argue. "

Oh I wasn't trying to argue with you at all Danny, I fully agree with everything you just said!!!
cafecheckers
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Quote:
And to swerve this back on topic, ANY coaching program that does not allow for failure is not one I would want to take. One that does not teach a person how to use failure to become something is not worth taking. Obviously nobody here does that, I mean those other coaching courses and those other people.


This is a great point. I strongly agree that failure is critical in the learning process. In fact, I would say that the way a coach reacts to situations involving failure or mistakes is perhaps the best way to determine true capabilities. To me, it is like a swimming coach in that the coach has to know how to avoid complete drowning without stepping in every time the beginner feels like he/she is drowning.
Dannydoyle
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It is knowing the difference in drowning and learning to swim that makes the difference.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
cafecheckers
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On Jun 11, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
Don't be afraid to fail. Failure is a temporary state. Or at least it can be.


I have benefitted the most from failure when I owned it and did not pass it off as “it was meant to be” or “things happen for a reason” or other statements that seem like a positive attitude on the surface, but are really defense mechanisms to somehow remove fault or blame.

I also think one of the benefits of having a solid work ethic is that one can not only get more things done, but also expose themselves to failure more often and quickly because the greater activity produces both positive and negative results. Failing fast allows learning opportunities. For me, failing when I am younger and have fewer responsibilities outside of my business is the ideal time to take risks and learn from failures.

While I try not to fear failure, I try to minimize it by taking calculated risks. Here is one place coaching has really proven beneficial
Dannydoyle
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Yep. Problems are just solutions wearing work clothes.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mindpro
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Quote:

On Jul 27, 2018, Theodore Lawton wrote (in another Tricky Business thread):
This is getting exciting because I can begin to understand it now.

I've learned more about magic as a business here in the last several days than in all my first 8-10 years as a magician.


This is also one of the many benefits to coaching programs and working with the right professional coach that knows exactly what you need even before you do. If you feel this now after just a few threads in an open forum, imagine what is possible with information, direction, and specified content directly to your own interest and business. (I don't specifically mean Theodore, he's not coach-interested or ready yet, but just more, in general, to further explain the "whys" and benefits to coaching).

It can make it much easier, quicker, immediately applicable and truly save you years off of the learning curve, creating results almost instantly. I am glad the very basics and beginning were able to be played out here for all to see just the very beginning tip of the iceberg on the most basic level with a beginner (even with ten years experience).
charliecheckers
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I thought I would share a recent updates:
I am back in school now. I have been preparing elevator pitches for class and contests. Mindpro has been working with me to create and deliver effective pitches. He has been very helpful during this time because my entertainment business differs from the businesses we generally discuss in class. More education has to be provided regarding my product vs most other products or services that are more easily described. I have been getting positive feedback from fellow students and faculty. These pitches have been mostly directed toward potential investors of ones business, but I have worked on client pitches with Mindpro outside of my academics. We also worked on several radio appearances I recently participated in.

What you put into coaching is what you get out of it:
One thing I have been discovering is that my coaching sessions become more productive the more I share about my business with Mindpro. That may seem obvious, but I can only say that for me it took a while better synchronize my perspectives. Technology such as Google Docs allows input from multiple aspects of expertise, so having a coach integrated into those files is another dynamic way to benefit.

One way I enjoy learning is through story telling. Mindpro continues to match his past experiences with dilemmas or opportunities I am involved in. Story telling allows me to visualize things better.

I am preparing for a Entrepreneurial Business Competition where I have 12 minutes to present my business and 10 additional minutes to respond to questions. I am one of seven finalists across Upstate NY. I am using this opportunity to clarify my business model and communicate my vision. Even in the week I have worked on it so far has been extremely rewarding. I have been assigned a local “coach” to assist me. While I have several additional people assisting in the preparations, it is so nice to have a business coach that intimately knows my industry and business, my communication style, personal preferences, strengths, and development areas as I work through the preparation phase.
cafecheckers
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I just realized I posted using my brothers account, LOL. That’s what happens when he uses my computer without telling me.
Mindpro
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Yes, so many things have been happening and so quickly too. I have to step back and remember that you are still a student in school as your priority and are only operating on a limited part-time basis. Even at the current level you, are performing and earning more than many that are full-time and have been doing this for ten years or more.

Some very, very exciting things are still upcoming that will take this to even greater levels. So excited for you!
cafecheckers
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On Nov 1, 2018, Senor Fabuloso wrote:
Rather than coaching, I suggest having a performing magician watch and analyze your show from magicians perspective. In the same audience get a lay person to answer a questionnaire with what you want to know or the same areas the magician, is looking at. Compare the two and see, what works and what doesn't?

This is good advice, but in no way is a substitute for coaching, as the discussions one has with a coach extend way beyond the performance. Additionally, while feedback from various perspectives is beneficial, it is extremely valuable to ensure that there is feedback from someone who intimately knows your strengths, weaknesses, goals, as well as contributing factors to the success or failure of a particular performance.
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BEWARE of online experts who CLAIM clients and vast knowledge. If they truly had such knowledge would they share it with you and cut their own throats? Doesn't make sense does it?

Generally speaking, good advice to beware of any claims made. One real benefit to participating here and putting your time in is that you get the opportunity to see past claims and ego. I think the logic regarding questioning why someone would share knowledge with someone else is flawed. Your assuming that everyone views sharing knowledge as hurting themselves, but that is often not the case. Additionally, many people receive great personal satisfaction in helping others succeed, even beyond the level of success they personally experienced.
Quote:
Also check out when they are online and ask yourself, if they are so successful and busy, why do they spend so much time here? Smile

This is very flawed logic. Successful people often have enormous amounts of leisure time. Who are we to question how they spend it?
cafecheckers
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On Sep 17, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
So we commit to it. Burn the boats if you will. Google Cortez or read this for a reference. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.......net/amp/

I happen to believe that in an unrelated point performers who do not burn their boats have more trouble succeeding than those who do. I'm not encouraging anyone to so. Just pointing out an opinion.


This is a quote I brought to this thread because it was when I decided that I intended to “burn my boat” that I sought coaching. While my classmates are in the process of seeking employment and interviewing with perspective employers, I am preparing the transition to being a full time business owner. I do so knowing that with my experience and grade point average I could be working for a good salary and full benefits right out of school, without many of the pressures of running a business. I share this because I believe that one should afford themselves whatever opportunities to learn and develop before they “burn their bridge”. For those who are young reading this, take full advantage of every resource you can and gain as much experience performing as possible, before the bullets fly live and you burn your boat. I am not sure what lies ahead, but feel a sense of confidence that has been afforded to me through my years working part time, college pursuit, and industry specific coaching.
cafecheckers
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Hi everyone – This past week while speaking with Mindpro on our weekly call, he asked me for my perspectives on how this past year went. This was a discussion beyond just the numbers, and involved my sense of success, failure, opportunities and challenges in a conversational way. It forced me to verbalize some of the thoughts I have on how I can grow my business in a more optimal way. It was good to have someone outside of my family and business to discuss these essential things. It was equally important to do so with someone who knows my business intimately.
Do others have such individuals you can turn to? Do you feel you benefit from having such discussions?
thomasR
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It’s always a great thing to be able to discuss plans with those who are able to listen and give ideas, thoughts and new perspectives.
I think it’s also a good idea to have discussions with people from various business backgrounds. For instance, those who have production managed large arena tours will have different thoughts and insight as to those who have only sat in an office and booked shows. While the later knows how to get bookings, which is the #1 need of an entertainer for financial success, the former may give some insight on how to accomplish performing a show in a professional manner.

If you are doing restaurant magic, restaurant managers would be invaluable to befriend. Etc.
cafecheckers
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On Dec 30, 2018, thomasR wrote:
It’s always a great thing to be able to discuss plans with those who are able to listen and give ideas, thoughts and new perspectives.
I think it’s also a good idea to have discussions with people from various business backgrounds. For instance, those who have production managed large arena tours will have different thoughts and insight as to those who have only sat in an office and booked shows. While the later knows how to get bookings, which is the #1 need of an entertainer for financial success, the former may give some insight on how to accomplish performing a show in a professional manner.

If you are doing restaurant magic, restaurant managers would be invaluable to befriend. Etc.


I agree with everything here, but I was more thinking along the lines of having an “end of year” type discussion with someone else. I did not properly phrase my post. While most people think about a year in review and New Year Resolutions at this time of the year, I found it valuable to have that discussion with my coach.

Wether it is a coach, friend, mentor, or anyone outside of your family and business, I wonder if others discuss their year end thoughts with someone as well as things they want to accomplish the following year. If so, it might be interesting to hear who that person is and why the person selected them and the value they get from it.
thomasR
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I currently don’t have anyone outside of family members. I wish I did, and in the past I have, but those people I’ve lost as much contact with over the years.
I agree, not just at the end of the year it’s invaluable to get thoughts and ideas from others.

I will say, for me, I’m looking forward to 2019 more so than any past year I can think of. Last year was extremely successful for my company, although not in my magic / variety shows. But that gives me a great budget to work with to get a new project off the ground this year.
Mindpro
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On Dec 30, 2018, Cafécheckers wrote:
Wether it is a coach, friend, mentor, or anyone outside of your family and business, I wonder if others discuss their year end thoughts with someone as well as things they want to accomplish the following year. If so, it might be interesting to hear who that person is and why the person selected them and the value they get from it.


One of the things that I have always done at my companies (agencies, production company, and promotion company) is we have a formal year-end week of meetings to review the past year and preview and set goals for the new upcoming year. For many years I would take my entire team (staff) to Hawaii for these meetings. So valuable and productive, also a great way to bond, keep everyone motivated, primed and on the same page. It really keeps a real and true perspective. So valuable. It is one of my favorite and most productive weeks of the entire year.

As Cafécheckers mentioned I also like doing this with all of my coaching/mentoring students, consulting clients and all of our major longtime client accounts. It proves helpful and beneficial in so many ways.
cafecheckers
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On Dec 30, 2018, thomasR wrote:
I will say, for me, I’m looking forward to 2019 more so than any past year I can think of. Last year was extremely successful for my company, although not in my magic / variety shows. But that gives me a great budget to work with to get a new project off the ground this year.


Likewise, I am very much looking forward to 2019! These first few days have been super fruitful for me, as I have been booking many first time clients as well as meeting with some potential clients I have been trying to get in front of for quite some time. The investment I made in learning the business has greatly enhanced my approach and confidence and I am seeing tangible results. Really exciting times!
Mindpro
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On Oct 20, 2018, charliecheckers wrote:
I am back in school now. I have been preparing elevator pitches for class and contests. Mindpro has been working with me to create and deliver effective pitches. He has been very helpful during this time because my entertainment business differs from the businesses we generally discuss in class.


This is a very interesting and important point that has risen its head again today (not with Cafécheckers) that I thought I would share here. Another of my coaching students/clients just received his Masters in Business this past Spring. Anticipating this significant time forthcoming back in early March we started working together knowing school would be completed soon and he hoped to launch his entertainment business over the summer.

When he came to me I had some concerns about his perception of getting his degree and then thinking he would simply just walk into a successful entertainment business as he has initially explained to me in his coaching application. Well, his enthusiasm and exuberance was exciting (rather than others who come to me completely frustrated, defeated and "as a last resort") as he passed my qualification throughout the application process, so I agreed to take him on as a client.

As we began his weekly coaching sessions he quickly hit a realization over the course of a couple of months. Originally he believed strongly that he had all of the business knowledge needed from his schooling and degree - he was ready to take it into the real world. I think he in his mind initially thought of me as a passenger on this ride to assist him over the summer and to kind of look over his shoulder as he came on like a whirlwind - grab the degree and take the entertainment world by storm.

Long story short, he got smacked right in the face with a dose of real-world reality within two weeks of getting his degree. Within a quick couple of months, he finally had a breakthrough coming to the realization that his formal education helped prepare him only basically or on a surface level for what we soon faced in the entertainment industry.

Now I know many "hot-shot" graduates come out of school and think they know it all only to have a rude awakening in the real world. I was actually expecting that as part of our learning process together, but this was much more. To his credit, while not accepting this at first the realization came quickly. He soon identified something that I have said over and over again - "the entertainment business is not like regular or conventional business."

He has said several times now over the 8 months that what he learned through our coaching and training, he felt was more valuable than the Master's Degree he received for all his years of schooling. He was open enough to see it, identify it, realize it and experience it first hand. He is currently, with my guidance, reworking his business model and business plan and 2019 should be a great year for us.

I love it when one experiences a breakthrough and sees the light - experiences the true understanding of this industry and business. He will soon have a business based on a realistic solid foundation, that will have 6 profit sources and yield close to (if not over) six figures by the end of his first year.

The point is not all education is the same, formal education such as business programs will not always be enough for the real world. Yes, you receive principles and foundational business components and theories, but it's understanding the differences in entertainment business and the real world application of these differences (and my unique principles) that will truly make the difference for him.

I hear it quite often but it is a beautiful thing when these guys (and gals) will say they learned more working with an entertainment business specialist in a year or two (in his case just after several months) than they did from throughout their entire formal education years. This guy, in particular, keeps focusing on all the student loans he incurred from his formal education when he could have paid me a fraction of that amount and invested in his business instead.

So I agree that this direct education and hands-on training that comes with coaching is much different - much more specific and direct, than the type of education learned in school or standard business education.
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