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NYCTwister
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We've never had unfettered capitalism.

Just sayin.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On Apr 2, 2017, NYCTwister wrote:
We've never had unfettered capitalism.

Just sayin.


Perhaps you should define your terms. Who is "we"? And do you mean "capitalism without regulation across the economy, or in smaller sectors"?

Regardless, you point to the oddness of the false dichotomy of "capitalism" vs "socialism" as the onky economic alternatives.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
lynnef
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Quote:
On Apr 2, 2017, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Are there only two possibilities? Unfettered capitalism or Soviet-style socialism?

Really?


I agree with you on this that these are not the only possibilities. It's definitely a longer debate; but I don't believe there's any endpoint to how humans create society... ie NO utopia. I certainly don't believe that capitalism is the endpoint or "unknown ideal"; but I do believe in science, which includes how humans interact socially. Lynn
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Apr 2, 2017, lynnef wrote:
Capitalism gave us 2 world wars. Socialism is not a utopia. Lynn

Want to explain that?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Apr 2, 2017, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 2, 2017, NYCTwister wrote:
We've never had unfettered capitalism.

Just sayin.


Perhaps you should define your terms. Who is "we"? And do you mean "capitalism without regulation across the economy, or in smaller sectors"?

Regardless, you point to the oddness of the false dichotomy of "capitalism" vs "socialism" as the onky economic alternatives.


"We" as in humanity.

Unfettered as in the judgment of the end user is paramount.

I pointed to no dichotomy.

I was just sayin.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On Apr 2, 2017, NYCTwister wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 2, 2017, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 2, 2017, NYCTwister wrote:
We've never had unfettered capitalism.

Just sayin.


Perhaps you should define your terms. Who is "we"? And do you mean "capitalism without regulation across the economy, or in smaller sectors"?

Regardless, you point to the oddness of the false dichotomy of "capitalism" vs "socialism" as the onky economic alternatives.


"We" as in humanity.

Unfettered as in the judgment of the end user is paramount.

I pointed to no dichotomy.

I was just sayin.


1. Humans enjoyed unfettered capitalism for millions of years before power structures got in on the action. There are enormous pockets of unfettered capitalism all over the world--much of the drug trade, piracy, human trafficking and whatnot goes on completely outside of the control of governments. It's the entry into the system that causes the market to break.

2. The dichotomy was Danny's and my comment (the one you were "just sayin'" about) was directed at his comment.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Dannydoyle
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Should a government not be allowed to keep the strong from preying on the weak? I mean isn't that one of the main sort of functions when you break it down? Is it such a bad thing?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On Apr 2, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Should a government not be allowed to keep the strong from preying on the weak?


Absolutely! I think that you, landmark and I are in complete agreement on that point.

Quote:
I mean isn't that one of the main sort of functions when you break it down? Is it such a bad thing?


It's a perfect example of why governments are necessary. The devil, of course, is in the details. I'm perfectly fine with socialized:

*public transit
*water treatment
*sewage
*police
*fire response
*health care

All in the interests of protecting the individual from the blunt force of the powerful (including the state). There is room in here for some private sector as well. But I would like to see it regulated.

My guess is that our real disagreement is over the details of the regulation.

Ultimately, though, this is a restriction of capitalism, and it involves some socialism. The art is in the balance.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Apr 2, 2017, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 2, 2017, NYCTwister wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 2, 2017, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 2, 2017, NYCTwister wrote:
We've never had unfettered capitalism.

Just sayin.


Perhaps you should define your terms. Who is "we"? And do you mean "capitalism without regulation across the economy, or in smaller sectors"?

Regardless, you point to the oddness of the false dichotomy of "capitalism" vs "socialism" as the onky economic alternatives.


"We" as in humanity.

Unfettered as in the judgment of the end user is paramount.

I pointed to no dichotomy.

I was just sayin.


1. Humans enjoyed unfettered capitalism for millions of years before power structures got in on the action. There are enormous pockets of unfettered capitalism all over the world--much of the drug trade, piracy, human trafficking and whatnot goes on completely outside of the control of governments. It's the entry into the system that causes the market to break.

2. The dichotomy was Danny's and my comment (the one you were "just sayin'" about) was directed at his comment.



It depends what you meant by unfettered capitalism," but I wouldn't apply it to the drug trade, with local monopolies enforced by death penalties. The government isn't the only entity that can fetter things up.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On Apr 2, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:



It depends what you meant by unfettered capitalism," but I wouldn't apply it to the drug trade, with local monopolies enforced by death penalties. The government isn't the only entity that can fetter things up.


Naw. That's the market sorting the winners from the losers. The market's very efficent that way Smile
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Apr 2, 2017, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 2, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Should a government not be allowed to keep the strong from preying on the weak?


Absolutely! I think that you, landmark and I are in complete agreement on that point.

Quote:
I mean isn't that one of the main sort of functions when you break it down? Is it such a bad thing?


It's a perfect example of why governments are necessary. The devil, of course, is in the details. I'm perfectly fine with socialized:

*public transit
*water treatment
*sewage
*police
*fire response
*health care

All in the interests of protecting the individual from the blunt force of the powerful (including the state). There is room in here for some private sector as well. But I would like to see it regulated.

My guess is that our real disagreement is over the details of the regulation.

Ultimately, though, this is a restriction of capitalism, and it involves some socialism. The art is in the balance.


Yea health care does not fall within the bounds of the 18 enumerated powers. But no it does not involve socialism. Yes you want to redefine it to slip it past the goalie, but that does not change that it is not how we are set up in America, or should be.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On Apr 2, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:

Yea health care does not fall within the bounds of the 18 enumerated powers. But no it does not involve socialism. Yes you want to redefine it to slip it past the goalie, but that does not change that it is not how we are set up in America, or should be.


I'm not talking about America. Nor the "18 enumerated powers". There are principles and issues that transcend your parochial interests.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Jonathan Townsend
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Eternal Order
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27083 Posts

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Quote:
On Apr 2, 2017, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
... There are principles and issues that transcend your parochial interests.

What do you believe are such principles and interests?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Apr 2, 2017, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 2, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:

Yea health care does not fall within the bounds of the 18 enumerated powers. But no it does not involve socialism. Yes you want to redefine it to slip it past the goalie, but that does not change that it is not how we are set up in America, or should be.


I'm not talking about America. Nor the "18 enumerated powers". There are principles and issues that transcend your parochial interests.


Shame on Danny, talking about American health care and the appropriate role of government funding and regulation in the thread about...oh, wait. Never mind.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Apr 2, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 2, 2017, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 2, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:

Yea health care does not fall within the bounds of the 18 enumerated powers. But no it does not involve socialism. Yes you want to redefine it to slip it past the goalie, but that does not change that it is not how we are set up in America, or should be.


I'm not talking about America. Nor the "18 enumerated powers". There are principles and issues that transcend your parochial interests.


Shame on Danny, talking about American health care and the appropriate role of government funding and regulation in the thread about...oh, wait. Never mind.


Yes that was my thought.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Apr 2, 2017, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 2, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:

Yea health care does not fall within the bounds of the 18 enumerated powers. But no it does not involve socialism. Yes you want to redefine it to slip it past the goalie, but that does not change that it is not how we are set up in America, or should be.


I'm not talking about America. Nor the "18 enumerated powers". There are principles and issues that transcend your parochial interests.


Since this thread is SPECIFICALLY ABOUT those things I didn't feel like it was too much of a stretch to include them in my thinking.

Unless somehow you believe every single post and response here has to be about the entire world as seen by you?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Jonathan Townsend
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Power projection? Parochial or not, we've got working vaporware.

Comic relief: Mallwave was a thing?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On Apr 3, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 2, 2017, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 2, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:

Yea health care does not fall within the bounds of the 18 enumerated powers. But no it does not involve socialism. Yes you want to redefine it to slip it past the goalie, but that does not change that it is not how we are set up in America, or should be.


I'm not talking about America. Nor the "18 enumerated powers". There are principles and issues that transcend your parochial interests.


Since this thread is SPECIFICALLY ABOUT those things I didn't feel like it was too much of a stretch to include them in my thinking.

Unless somehow you believe every single post and response here has to be about the entire world as seen by you?


Still dealing in alternative facts, Danny?

The OP was not specifically about enumerated powers; it was about incompetent legislators.

Quote:
On Mar 25, 2017, landmark wrote:
What did these amateurs think they were doing yesterday? Did they really think that anyone would believe that they were really trying to improve healthcare for the mass of voters? They had a nice big fat target in Obamacare and made a train wreck. At this rate 2018 is not going to be pretty for the current occupants.


The talk took a sideways turn (as it usually does) to capitalism vs socialism, with you taking a shot at landmark:

Quote:
On Apr 1, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
It must be horrible to live life thinking everything is a conspiracy and everyone is against you.

You always complain yet never offer a solution. Or oddly enough your solutions have never in the history of the world worked.

But let me guess. It was just never done the right way.


And
Quote:
On Apr 1, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
You are CONSTANTLY pushing an agenda of socialist utopia and complain endlessly about capitalism. These are facts not opinions. Your posting history speaks for itself.

Show us where on the scale of the United States socialism has worked ever. You say capitalism has killed people, but socialism and communism have killed hundreds of millions. Not even close in the score card. But you ignore that. You are very myopic. It is sad because you are quite intelligent.



It was at this point that I made my points. So spare us the sanctimony and falsehood, Danny. If you're going to attack me for straying from the OP, then you'd better disqualify virtually everything you've posted in this thread.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
lynnef
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Quote:
On Apr 2, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 2, 2017, lynnef wrote:
Capitalism gave us 2 world wars. Socialism is not a utopia. Lynn

Want to explain that?


1)There were no socialist countries when WW1 began. It was a battle over capitalist empire's abilities to control the capital markets and territories of the world. This obviously can't be explained in a sentence; but Barbara Tuchman's Guns of August helps to understand what caused it. As Bob Dylan sang "the reason for fightin' I never did get." One of Lenin's first acts of socialism was to pull Russia out of world war one. WW2 I believe was also a war of empires (yes, Hitler was a capitalist as well as a fascist). There's been much written about this as well, including how the Treaty of Versaille left Germany with a crushing depression. (Jane Mayer's Dark Money points out how some US capitalists were big money behind Hitler's oil refineries, necessary for his swiftly rising war chest).

2)Socialism is not a utopia as Frederich Engels describes in 'Socialism, Utopian and Scientific'. It comes with a birthmark of the previous society. It can either lead to an end to exploitation OR a return to the horrors and worse. A particularly bad example would be Pol Pot,who believed you could just 'even things out' by killing all those who were not proletarian. (indeed, with this logic, the only way to achieve a classless society would be to kill everyone) I don't believe there are any socialist countries today, certainly not China.

I liked Magnus' post because he posed the problem as not so simple. It's not. Lynn
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On Apr 3, 2017, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 3, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 2, 2017, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 2, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:

Yea health care does not fall within the bounds of the 18 enumerated powers. But no it does not involve socialism. Yes you want to redefine it to slip it past the goalie, but that does not change that it is not how we are set up in America, or should be.


I'm not talking about America. Nor the "18 enumerated powers". There are principles and issues that transcend your parochial interests.


Since this thread is SPECIFICALLY ABOUT those things I didn't feel like it was too much of a stretch to include them in my thinking.

Unless somehow you believe every single post and response here has to be about the entire world as seen by you?


Still dealing in alternative facts, Danny?

The OP was not specifically about enumerated powers; it was about incompetent legislators.

Quote:
On Mar 25, 2017, landmark wrote:
What did these amateurs think they were doing yesterday? Did they really think that anyone would believe that they were really trying to improve healthcare for the mass of voters? They had a nice big fat target in Obamacare and made a train wreck. At this rate 2018 is not going to be pretty for the current occupants.


The talk took a sideways turn (as it usually does) to capitalism vs socialism, with you taking a shot at landmark:

Quote:
On Apr 1, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
It must be horrible to live life thinking everything is a conspiracy and everyone is against you.

You always complain yet never offer a solution. Or oddly enough your solutions have never in the history of the world worked.

But let me guess. It was just never done the right way.


And
Quote:
On Apr 1, 2017, Dannydoyle wrote:
You are CONSTANTLY pushing an agenda of socialist utopia and complain endlessly about capitalism. These are facts not opinions. Your posting history speaks for itself.

Show us where on the scale of the United States socialism has worked ever. You say capitalism has killed people, but socialism and communism have killed hundreds of millions. Not even close in the score card. But you ignore that. You are very myopic. It is sad because you are quite intelligent.



It was at this point that I made my points. So spare us the sanctimony and falsehood, Danny. If you're going to attack me for straying from the OP, then you'd better disqualify virtually everything you've posted in this thread.


Sorry it took a sideways turn when he interjected his usual agenda. OH how you leave that out. Talk about alternative facts.

Still in all those legislators were legislating IN AMERICA, and the thing he was talking about was the health care law. So go ahead tell me how that is dishonest in my response. Can't WAIT for your alternative facts.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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