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landmark
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This is a very interesting set of websites. You enter your belief, and then get challenged on it. Sort of like NVMS dressed up in a suit and tie.

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/are-you-wrong-find-out/

I should day, though, that I find option 3 laughable. The views cited to be "on the left" are all well within mainstream capitalist thought.
LobowolfXXX
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Yes, to hear bona fide socialism advocated, one generally has to enroll at an American college campus.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
landmark
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You meant that sarcastically, but to have so little accurate information about the most powerful and widespread alternative idea to capitalism is intellectually and morally appalling. The concept of these websites is interesting, but if you are really going to be even-handed then you have to have real oppositional binaries, not false ones.
Magnus Eisengrim
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As I have argued before, "left" and "right" are more terms of abuse than they are accurate or useful categories. One can avoid a whole lot of thinking by simply calling something "leftist" or "right-wing".

Individual issues have particular nuances; we should not expect a person's views on sexuality to correlate with, let alone determine, their views on pipeline construction.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Mar 27, 2017, landmark wrote:
You meant that sarcastically, but to have so little accurate information about the most powerful and widespread alternative idea to capitalism is intellectually and morally appalling. The concept of these websites is interesting, but if you are really going to be even-handed then you have to have real oppositional binaries, not false ones.


More tongue-in-cheek than pure sarcasm. Three of my seven professors in year one of law school were (actuak(0) socialists, and although it was discussed more obliquely in my undergrad and graduate English classes (my major, as you know), I strongly suspect the humanities department (at a different school) would exceed the law school total.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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On Mar 27, 2017, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
As I have argued before, "left" and "right" are more terms of abuse than they are accurate or useful categories. One can avoid a whole lot of thinking by simply calling something "leftist" or "right-wing".

Individual issues have particular nuances; we should not expect a person's views on sexuality to correlate with, let alone determine, their views on pipeline construction.


In the USA, I would certainly expect them to correlate. In fact, I'd lay significant money odds on it. Not a 100% correlation that applies to every individual, obviously, but I'd absolutely expect non-trivial correlations on the vast majority of pairs of political issues.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Magnus Eisengrim
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The reason that they do (as opposed to should) is pure marketing by political parties. Brand loyalty assures lack of electoral competition. The consequence is the propagandistic conflation of, say, climate science with economic policy.

I urge resistance.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
LobowolfXXX
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Strongly disagree. The reason political parties have as much cache as they do is people's natural gravitation toward one side or the other of the pendulum.

But if you want to engage the resistance, you can either oppose gay marriage or support the death penalty, but not both, since those are views that are opposed to each other in the current framework. Which will it be? Surely they haven't gotten to you to the extent that you can't see your way to taking one of those positions.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Magnus Eisengrim
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Politically, I have more choices than do Americans. Still not enough IMO, but more.

I try not to let political party-lines interfere with my thinking on issues. When I vote, I try to balance a bundle of issues with the various party platforms and pick the one that fits my wishes the best. I don't have to get everything I want; I just want the best package on offer. Similarly, I feel no pressure to change my views to conform to a party's platform. I feel no greaf distress in differing with my preferred candidate on a handful of contentious issues.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
LobowolfXXX
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Doesn't really address the issue, though, does it? There's a strong (inverse) correlation between support for gay marriage and support for the death penalty. And it comes from within, not without.

A handful? Sure. As I said, it's not a 100% correlation. But it comes from free will and personality.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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To put it another way, let's say there was a brand new political issue, that neither political party (nor anyone else) had tried to persuade anyone about. And let's say it was a binary issue. And you and I put our heads together and framed it with a wording that was as neutral possible. And we presented to 2000 people, as alike as possible in all demographic respects, except that one group was all pro choice, and the other was all pro life. I'd lay HUGE odds there would be a significant different between the groups on the new issue.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Magnus Eisengrim
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On Mar 27, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Doesn't really address the issue, though, does it? There's a strong (inverse) correlation between support for gay marriage and support for the death penalty. And it comes from within, not without.



This is where we disagree. There is a powerful political force, shaping people's beliefs for them. Ultimately, the pressure turns into "I am a (liberal/conservative) so I support X." If you doubt this, check out the climate change thread. Scientific evidence for/against AGW should be accepted on non-partisan grounds. But it clearly is not. Political brand loyalty trumps reason. (As a bridge player, I'm sure you'll forgive the metaphor.)
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Jonathan Townsend
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On Mar 27, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
... it comes from free will and personality.


Darn that free will, spoils everything!
...to all the coins I've dropped here
magicfish
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On Mar 27, 2017, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
As I have argued before, "left" and "right" are more terms of abuse than they are accurate or useful categories. One can avoid a whole lot of thinking by simply calling something "leftist" or "right-wing".

Individual issues have particular nuances; we should not expect a person's views on sexuality to correlate with, let alone determine, their views on pipeline construction.

And yet it can and often does.
landmark
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If you're interested in those kinds of questions, I highly recommend Wilhelm Reich's work, particularly The Mass Psychology of Fascism.
Magnus Eisengrim
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On Mar 27, 2017, magicfish wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 27, 2017, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
As I have argued before, "left" and "right" are more terms of abuse than they are accurate or useful categories. One can avoid a whole lot of thinking by simply calling something "leftist" or "right-wing".

Individual issues have particular nuances; we should not expect a person's views on sexuality to correlate with, let alone determine, their views on pipeline construction.

And yet it can and often does.


Which is precisely my point.

People are allowing their rationality to be subverted by political brand loyalty.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Mar 27, 2017, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 27, 2017, magicfish wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 27, 2017, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
As I have argued before, "left" and "right" are more terms of abuse than they are accurate or useful categories. One can avoid a whole lot of thinking by simply calling something "leftist" or "right-wing".

Individual issues have particular nuances; we should not expect a person's views on sexuality to correlate with, let alone determine, their views on pipeline construction.

And yet it can and often does.


Which is precisely my point.

People are allowing their rationality to be subverted by political brand loyalty.


The reasons why they are so susceptible is the real issue.
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
Jonathan Townsend
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Vanity on the hook, just pull for rancor on demand.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
NYCTwister
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On Mar 28, 2017, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Vanity on the hook, just pull for rancor on demand.


And the need for the vanity?
If you need fear to enforce your beliefs, then your beliefs are worthless.
Jonathan Townsend
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That vanity...seems essential. maybe linked to the notion of self.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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