I am looking for a decent deck of Tarot Cards. A deck that I can use for flourishes, shuffles, etc. All the standard card stuff, but with The Tarot. Any suggestions?

Usually the rider waites are close to the size of playing cards, though everyone tells me size does not matter in card work!

I will take a look through our stock tonight and see what other decks we have that might be in the size range, if that is your consideration, and post the deck names so you can go check them out at your local store, (or order them from us if you like!)
Kay
bizarremagick.com

There is a special Rider-Waite deck roughly the size of playing cards; the regular Rider-Waite decks are quite a bit larger. They are called the "Pocket Rider-Waite". They are 2 1/4 x 3 1/2 inches. These are available from U. S. Games:

http://www.usgamesinc.com/Tarot/viewProd......t_ID=441

Yours,

Paul

We looked in our inventory and the Rider Waite pocket deck is the same height as a card deck, though a but narrower than poker cards, perhaps more bridge sized, also the Hanson Roberts deck is the same width as poker cards and about 1/2 inch taller.
Kay
http://www.bizarremagick.com

Mostly I am looking for the same type of texture and coating. Are they about the same in that aspect?

Thanks for your help.

Astinus - why?

The Tarot is a mysterious gateway to a person's soul. It is my practice in my act and in my books (Black Books 1,2 & 3) to discourage anyone to devalue the Tarot by treating them as 'ordinary' playing cards.

The fact that the public have the impression that Tarot cards are special is a great help to the 'Bizarre' magician. I am interested in your reasons.

Black Hart

I would venture to say that a juggler who wandered into a village and proported to be a fortune teller and did not respect the venerable Tarot, would not only have every honest Gypsy in the province looking to deliver him a black spot -- but would be burned as a witch.

And modern readers of the same frame of mind (and I am one) - as Black Hart says above -- look in disdain on those who do"flourishes" but we really completely appreciate those who can use card magic's more sereptitious moves to deliver the emotional punch that attaches itself to Tarot work.

My fear is (from the Icon photo of the Querant) that many or our youth, after looking at the fact that Tarot DOES have a mystic impact greater than a poker deck, might ascribe that to the appearance of the cards, rather than to the hard won psychological impact we of the bizarre stripe strive to embew these ancient and venerable symbols. They are icons -- no0t just pasteboards.

IN PLAIN ENGLISH -- for goodness sake -- unless you are a dramatic genius --- keep flourishes, mouth productions, throwing cards into an audience and those juggling ideas in one box --- Tarot cards and their use for readings, mystical and bizarre effects, which depend upon the MAGICK nature of the cards to laymen, in another box. Reducing Tarot to another stagey looking prop only removes another tool from the conjurer's box as quickly as red and gold spray painted masonite props with green highlights.

Let me however - BEFORE I AM BURNED IN THE EXCEPTIONAL ETERNAL FLAME OF NET HELL - propose an alternative -- one of AMAZING BEAUTY AND SKILL. This is rarely practiced -- because too many are faint of heart lacking of focus and skill. It is found in the proper use of ASTONISHINGLY ARTISTIC fanning decks. In fact -- the Dragon Fanning Deck (I believe still available at Viking/Collectors) offers some of the most intricate card/visual magic(k) you can do. With little work the deck alone enthralls the viewer and it hypnotizes a full audience with its ever flowing magick particularly if a solid story is told.

GC

Tarot cards should NEVER be used as "regular" cards, for flourishes, card tricks, etc.
You CAN do "card tricks" with them but the story line must be so intense as to far outweigh the "trick" feature.
As is evident from the previous posts, many people consider Tarot cards as "special"; treat them as such.

I agree with Black Hart, chmara and Peter,

For people who care about, to watch someone doing flourishes with Tarot cards will be like seen the Pope doing breakdance.

What purpose would be served using the cards for manipulations?

What MESSAGE would be conveyed to the audience from such a display?

The tarot is an antique oracle. What it has to offer is usually received in interpretation of the arrangements of the symbols presented when the oracle is invoked.

Iconoclasm has its place in our culture as well. We moved new year's from Spring to min-winter and called those who tried to hold onto the 'old' way April Fools. Perhaps the posted wanted to send a jolt to the more serious minded?

Oh, man. Here goes. With all due respect to the above posters, I say that tarot cards are fair game. They're a tool, just like anything else. Despite society's consideration of them as being mystical, they're still just pasteboards with ink on them. Granted, you're going to need to carefully develop a context in which to do this, but I believe it can be done. I've done manipulations with baseball cards, for Pete's sake! I apologize if that sounds rather cavalier, but if it can theorectically be done, it should at least be tried. Of course, it may fail miserably, but at least you tried.

Not everyone feels that tarot cards are the gateway to a person's soul. To some of us, they are just cards. Just like a ouija board is simply a boardgame.

"Reducing Tarot to another stagey looking prop only removes another tool from the conjurer's box as quickly as red and gold spray painted masonite props with green highlights."

Well, I have always felt that tarot cards have always been nothing more than a stage prop. There are already many mass-marketed effects using tarot cards, so I don't see the difference between them and taking the next step to performing flourishes and manipulations with them.

Just my two cents.

A few thoughts -

The interesting line is being drawn here between Magic and Magick (see A.Crowley's Magick in Theory and Practice)....and, for that matter, the curious and very real realms where Magic, Magick, Science and Religion fuse and dance together.

The Tarot can act like a reflective super-computer of the human mind. I agree that the resonance of occultist's since the Middle Ages - and earlier actually - is not to be taken lightly.

Typically, before a reading, the Magician might EVOKE his Holy Guardian Angel (or inner, core self if you will.) Probably wise not to play with fire, even if you don't believe in it, just in case those illusory green flames turn out to be very real.

For actual readings - The stunningly gorgeous THOTH DECK - designed by Aleister Crowley, and painted wonderfully by Lady Frieda Harris, has been in my experience the most powerful.....and, at times, frightening. (the original paintings rest in London's Warburg Institute if I recall.)

Tarot cards must be kept in a special pouch...and must NEVER NEVER EVER be handled by anyone but yourself. Like a sensitive ancient Mage who doesn't like being touched. The electrical living power is absorbed like a sponge.

A fantastic, albeit time consuming, and much SAFER exercise might be to design one's own deck, incorporating personal mythos and history.

"To some of us, they are just cards. Just like a ouija board is simply a boardgame..."

It is not what WE think about the Tarot that matters. It is what our audience thinks that counts. Perhaps you are in the wrong forum.

Black Hart

"Perhaps you are in the wrong forum."

Now, there's a dangerous assumption. I respect your take on the subject, and I'm sorry if it distresses you that there are very often two sides to a discussion. And when I said "us", I simply meant people in general. Sorry if that was confusing.

You gave, then I gave. That's how discussion works. But to imply that I have no place in this forum is rather unfair, nor is it your place to make that judgement.

Astinus, I simply wanted you to know that I'm with you on your idea. Good luck!

Thanks Firedice.

Everyone, if I plan on giving a reading, I will not do flourishes. But I will not be doing readings anytime soon. I enjoy the artwork, and my desire to have a decent Tarot deck for manipulation is simply for looks and appearance. If you people have problems with that, that is fine. Thank the Good Lord I live in America and can purchase cards for my own uses.

Thank you Firedice and Charles for your imput.

Everyone's input has been helpful. I will use caution when I consider buying a tarot deck as well. Maybe these new Tiger Decks would be sufficient for what I am looking.

There are two arguments behind the "conventional wisdom" warning against using Tarot cards for "regular" card magic. The first is that most people have little to no experience with the Tarot - they may have seen them in a movie or on TV, and chances are the only card they saw was the Death card. That is, to the average person, Tarot cards are weird, strange, odd, unusual. Contrast this with regular playing cards that almost everyone has handled themselves countless times. Doing the impossible with ordinary objects (regular cards) has one impact. Doing the impossible with strange things is another.

The second is that sooner or later, you will run into someone who takes the Tarot seriously. Very seriously. If your routine includes saying something about the cards that contradicts the standard beliefs, you will eventually be called out as a fake. If you treat their mysticism lightly, you will eventually be called out as a fake. If you don't know the standard interpretations for each card, you will eventually be called out as a fake.

None of this is a conclusive argument against using Tarot cards in magic, at least in my mind. What is conclusive to me is that you should think very carefully about why you want to use Tarot cards. What is the image of yourself and your magic that you want to impress into the minds of the audience? Will using Tarot cards help or hinder you in that pursuit? How? Why? Does their unusualness (to the average lay audience) add to your effect, or are they distracting from your magic? What will you do and say to defuse challenges from true believers?

:cucumber:

OPP indeed!

I simply wonder what Astinus intends to convey with the cards.

Iconoclasm or heresy means little to me. True believers are unswayed by the errors of others. It's the borderline folks who lose it when you cross the party lines.

I found the nicer tarot cards a bit unwieldy for many sleights. Also found better sources for 'pretty' cards.

Best of fortunes in your search, -Jon

This got me thinking. Astinus, have you seen the Gypsy Witch deck? Very cool looking fortune telling cards, poker size and they look pretty when fanned. They have a nice holloweeny feel about them. Check them out.

Firedice27 - you do not distress me, I simply think that you are wrong. That is MY side of the argument. We are both entitled to our opinions and in an open forum we are both entitled to express them.

Astinus - I think you slightly misinterpret our advice. People are advising that If you want to do magic with Tarot cards then doing 'flourishes' will diminish the effect. Remember this forum is for "THE SPOOKY, THE MYSTERIOUS...THE BIZARRE!"

Black Hart

So I take it no one wants to invest their time or skill on the truly artistic fanning and serpentine decks.... another art lost.

I am sorry that so many people want to discount magic to a TV sitcopm or party for kids. Maybe I shpould become a hermit in Arizona and run a seance or two.

GC