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Dannydoyle
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Me too.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
0pus
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I would certainly want more facts here (as Danny would ordinarily urge).

For example, did the local police respond to an "underage drinking" complaint with a tactical/riot control squad? If so, why? (In my neighborhood, that usually would result in a squad car going to the house and an officer ringing the bell; maybe breaking up the party. Departing partygoers would not be likely to be chased - if they left, the police's job would probably have been done.)

Or did the local police did not respond more gently? If so, what was the shooter doing with an assault rifle?

Given that the original police report suggested that the car was being used as a weapon (and I believe that this was to justify deadly force), but that assertion has been abandoned, has the "shots fired" allegation been corroborated, or is that likely to have been fabricated as well?

Was the shooter "thrown under the bus" by the police department? If so, was this to take people's attention from how the department itself responded to the call?
Salguod Nairb
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I wouldn't say the police department threw Officer Oliver under the bus being that he did shoot at a car full of teenagers driving away with an assault weapon, but that's just me...
We shall meet in the place where there is no darkness...
0pus
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I am willing to consider mitigating factors such as the department whipping the responding officers into a frenzy by suggesting that they will be joining a fire fight when they arrived.

Not saying that that happened, but having the respondees expecting a pitched battle with firearms, etc., rather than some underage drinking and boisterous behavior would have some impact on my thinking.
Dannydoyle
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I was only speaking in general terms about the idea of every day calls being responded to with an AR-15.

I was speaking in general terms about the department being transparent.

Not about facts not yet known.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Salguod Nairb
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Quote:
On May 4, 2017, 0pus wrote:
I am willing to consider mitigating factors such as the department whipping the responding officers into a frenzy by suggesting that they will be joining a fire fight when they arrived.

Not saying that that happened, but having the respondees expecting a pitched battle with firearms, etc., rather than some underage drinking and boisterous behavior would have some impact on my thinking.



So the police had a pep rally before dispatching to the underage drinking call?

WE GOT RIFLES
YES WE DO
YOUR RIGHTS - TRIFLE
PEW PEW PEW!
We shall meet in the place where there is no darkness...
0pus
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I am just questioning whether the individual shooter was the only bad actor, or whether the entire response from the police was an institutional bad act.
Dannydoyle
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Regarding what they respond to, you don't jump to an AR-15 first club off the tee. You escalate as the situation dictates. You do not start with maximum response. (I HOPE an AR-15 is maximum response from a beat cop!)

In this case was it escelated on scene? Good question, but the department seems to indicate no. It all needs to be investigated.

But in general you would not even draw any weapon without some serious provocation. Pulling an AR-15 seems an extraordinary step. We will see.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Salguod Nairb
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The other issue is, who was he shooting at? Why fire downrange if you don't have a defined target?
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RNK
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My point is about the police having an AR-15 in the car at all times. In today's society I believe police need to be prepared for the worst. Is it overkill to pull the AR-15 out once arriving to the scene and becoming aware that it was just teens drinking. I would agree.
Salguod Nairb
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Quote:
On May 4, 2017, RNK wrote:
... I believe police need to be prepared for the worst. ...



That would mean that every cop would need to be in full tactical gear at all times.

I'd rather not have an assault weapon leveled at my family for a routine traffic stop...
We shall meet in the place where there is no darkness...
Dannydoyle
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Quote:
On May 4, 2017, RNK wrote:
My point is about the police having an AR-15 in the car at all times. In today's society I believe police need to be prepared for the worst. Is it overkill to pull the AR-15 out once arriving to the scene and becoming aware that it was just teens drinking. I would agree.


Prepared for the worst sounds good on paper. But in reality 90 plus percent of cops never pull a sidearm line of duty, much less fire or return fire. So when you go big, big things can go wrong.

Firing into a moving vehicle is a questionable tactic and not taught by many departments. Why? Best case scenario is you hit the driver and now you have an out of control vehicle. Not a good situation. Unlike movie innocent people often will be hurt.

Or you disable the vehicle, again causing it to be out of control. Not cool. These are big mistakes.

In this case if he fired into the moving vehicle it seems as if it is a bad thing.

Plus throwing rounds down range at a moving target is just a rough hit. Lucky he didn't miss and hit someone.

So many things seem so wrong with this and in the end it is about training hours. It seems like some poor decisions were made. But I say seems because certainly things can change as facts are known.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
landmark
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Do you think the officer will face criminal charges?
Salguod Nairb
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Yes.
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RNK
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Quote:
On May 4, 2017, Salguod Nairb wrote:
Quote:
On May 4, 2017, RNK wrote:
... I believe police need to be prepared for the worst. ...



That would mean that every cop would need to be in full tactical gear at all times.

I'd rather not have an assault weapon leveled at my family for a routine traffic stop...



I think you and Danny are unclear with my view. If you read my post above it states about having an AR-15 with them "IN THE CAR" at all times. I never said that the police should do a routine traffic stop while carrying an AR-15. If I did, please post my quote where I stated that.

And Yes, I do think the police should always have an AR-15 in the car with them at ALL times.
Salguod Nairb
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So where do they put the AR-15 when they do traffic stops?
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0pus
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Quote:
On May 5, 2017, RNK wrote:
I never said that the police should do a routine traffic stop while carrying an AR-15. If I did, please post my quote where I stated that.


In the course of discussing that the victim was killed with an AR-15, both Salguod Nairb and Dannydoyle expressed concern that the police (at least the shooter) was responding to an underage drinking complaint armed with an assault weapon.
Your response was as follows:

Quote:
On May 4, 2017, RNK wrote:
I don't blame the police for taking an AR-15. As Danny stated, a .22 would still have killed the boy. In a society today that's unpredictable, I would think the police would rather be prepared for ANY situation than not prepared.


Given the context, this looks very much like your support for the proposition that responding to an underage drinking complaint armed with assault weapons was a good and proper response for the police.

I think you can see how your words could be interpreted that way.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On May 5, 2017, Salguod Nairb wrote:
So where do they put the AR-15 when they do traffic stops?


In the trunk, or locked in the car, like the shotgun.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Salguod Nairb
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Quote:
On May 5, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On May 5, 2017, Salguod Nairb wrote:
So where do they put the AR-15 when they do traffic stops?


In the trunk, or locked in the car, like the shotgun.


... and therein lies the problem.

Anybody can buy a shotgun, and as far as I know you can still buy them at Wal*Mart. The police sidearms are available to buy as well; not at Wal*mart.

However, an AR-15 is not. Unless you're a wacko you aren't going to kill a policeman just to get his sidearm or shotgun, but an assault weapon may tip the scales.

Locked in the trunk or stock locked is not secure. Especially if you have to do a foot pursuit. It's all about maintaining positive control of a very deadly weapon.

Now, if you are going into a hotspot then suit up in full tactical gear and bring a bazooka if you wish. All I'm saying is that it shouldn't be considered an accessory to the uniform.
We shall meet in the place where there is no darkness...
Dannydoyle
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I don't see it as much of an asset.

While I am personally doubtful of the break into a cop car scenario I doubt them necessary much. Weapons are so easily obtainable the breaking into the vehicle of a cop is a danger not necessary.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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