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RedHatMagic Loyal user UK 239 Posts |
"I have a card palmed, what if they see it, am I being natural, is this natural? Oh help!"
Change your mental dialogue. I am here to entertain them / generate a particular response. Are they being entertained? Change your focus, forget about the card, you can ditch it later. Focus on the bigger picture, are they having fun? Relax, enjoy yourself. You will be a better magician for it (or at least I think so).
Let the Entertainment Commence!
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Carderrez Regular user Arlington, Texas 188 Posts |
To best address this I encourage downloading a A Triumph and a Talk by Darwin Ortiz. I can't been begin to touch on the detail he goes into overcoming this distraction. The card is palmed, but the audience will not know it is there unless the magician projects it. His very example is a palmed card.
His talk alone is worth the price of admission. |
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danaruns Special user The City of Angels 808 Posts |
Another wonderful topic! This comment is kind of on topic, I think:
I perform for audiences full of magicians now and then, and I don't really like it. When performing for lay people, I really have fun. When performing for magicians I'm self-conscious. I worry about whether they see things that I know lay people won't, I watch them burning my hands, sometimes I know I like the way they do the same things better, and I don't enjoy it nearly as much. That's not guilt, per se, but it does take the joy out of it, and I do have a hyper-vigilant inner dialogue. Except in rare instances like today, when a prominent magician surprised me by exclaiming, "Wow! Wow! That was amazing!" I have to admit that gave me joy, but I think it was more appreciation for a series of moves he probably knew I was making, than the kind of amazement a lay person has. And I was still hyper-self-aware, and it's still a different vibe than performing for lay people, where I'm unconscious of the moves I'm making, and am just having fun with the audience. It's impossible to entertain magicians in the same way as lay people, as they just watch differently, and I have admit that I get those self-conscious inner dialogues, and it's not healthy. And I don't like feeling that way.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
It seems to me that the magicians require a good deal of ego, self-confidence, a bit of a trickster spirit and a lot of guts. These can be developed, but mostly seem to be down to genetics and early formative experiences IMHO.
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Andy Young Special user Jersey Shore, PA 813 Posts |
I remember when I first read about this on the forums. I have never felt any kind of guilt or shame. I think people are just not ready to "act". Although many people put on a act throughout the day. Every hear how a guy will change how he talks or acts when a girl he likes calls him? Or how someone acts when they are with people that they can just let loose with? Are these people lying? And should they have guilt?
NO The only guilt you should have is if you don't entertain a person. That should be your goal and if you have to false up the reality of things a bit it doesn't diminish that fact. I haven't watch a tv program and got mad at it because an actor is not telling the truth. I mean it would be a little crazy to say that about William Shatner and it role of Captain Kirk. So why do people make it a deal in magic --- when in the end magic is an art and art is about getting emotions out not about the morals of how it was made. |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
I'm not sure acting is a fair analogy to a magic trick, Andy, though I get what you're saying. When acting everything you say and do in character is clearly understood to be pretend to the audience, but in magic a lot of what is said has to be taken as real and not pretend by the audience for the trick to work at all!
For example, when I say "I put the ace in the middle of the deck," unless the audience actually believes that the ace went into the middle of the deck then the ace appearing elsewhere is a non-effect. The magician has to convince the audience that sometimes what he is pretending to do is actually what is being done - the magician literally has to lie or deceive his audience for magic to work. The same is not true in on stage or movies - the audience does not have to be convinced that Captain America is a real person in real danger: the artful encouragement of the willing suspension of disbelief is not the same as the artful deceit to create a genuine sense of shock. Additionally, quite a few people might experience all manner of guilt-like emotions when acting in a non-authentic fashion around people, though whether they should or not is a question more for ethicists than magi |
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danaruns Special user The City of Angels 808 Posts |
So don't say, "I put the ace in the middle of the deck." Say, "Let's put the ace back in the deck somewhere," or something like that, and let the audience draw their own conclusion. Or is that a lie by omission, giving rise to guilt?
What about silent routines, do those also create guilt? I'm trying to wrap my head around the parameters, here. It seems to me that if you can't practice any level of deception without guilt, you're probably going to have a hard time as a magician, because you're absolutely right about artful deceit to create a genuine sense of astonishment. Personally, I take great pleasure and experience a sense of glee in successfully deceiving my audience. I love getting out ahead of them and knowing that they are on the completely wrong trail. I like putting them on that trail, watching them go down that trail, and watching them realize that they have been led astray. And the funny thing is . . . they like it, too! So I'm struggling understanding this, I have to confess.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
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Andy Young Special user Jersey Shore, PA 813 Posts |
If you think that most people that see a magic trick is real then you are mistaken. Also not everyone knows that acting is fake. There are many people that think Reality TV is real when in fact quite a few shows have story writers and such. Or for instance a prank show will also have people that believe things are really happening. There are exceptions and things that will back us up on both ways.
Also you don't have to lie to an audience. Having them believe the ace is in the middle of the deck and lying to them are different things. It all depends on how you present your magic. My question to you then is magic an art form or is it less then that? It is also your decision to lie to your audience or not. I tell kids that it is ok to believe in magic, but in the end it is all an illusion in your mind. |
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Andy Young Special user Jersey Shore, PA 813 Posts |
Quote:
On May 8, 2017, danaruns wrote: This is how your presentation can be truthful and yet magic occurs. Also I hadn't thought of a silent act, which is a great point. I think people in life lie and they only really have a problem when they get caught. Kids once they learn they can get away with it seem to do quite alright with lying. Also they have been studies that kids learn to lie not that long after they learn to walk. |
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Carderrez Regular user Arlington, Texas 188 Posts |
A magician needs to be true to the effect above all else. If there is to be any guilt whatsoever it is for failing to do so.
If you cannot be true to the effect there is no good reason to perform it for anyone else other than yourself. I will not perform magic otherwise. The truly great magicians do not waste a single gesture when performing, every move they make is completely natural and with purpose. The best medicine for eliminating guilt is setting up an exercise routine for your sleights, start off slowly and let these natural movements evolve into muscle memory and then add them to a routine or add more slights to your practice regiment. Too often we get caught up on doing the trick, with less focus on building on and learning the movement's necessary to properly perform these feats and therein lies the true guilt the performer experiences. If you have ever seen a skilled jazz musician ad-lib, they're abstracting from well practiced movements and experimenting and often times creating something totally new. They do not feel guilt when they miss a beat, they make any corrections and play on. Magic is very much like that in the sense that a well practiced and deliberate performer will be recognized as a well practiced and deliberate performer by their audience. Focus less on the final trick and more on the movements that make up a thousands of effects, not including those you will create yourself once you have learned them. I just started doing magic again after 29 years. My practice routine starts with memorized deck challenges, then I move to working my false shuffles. That's it, that is as far as I go for now. When I have both of these down, I will add working on my double-lifts and the pass. None of which I want to do without in my Ambitious Card routine, and that's only a few of the sleights I have yet to learn. Obviously at 59 years old, with the onset of arthritis I may not get too far, but that will not keep me from not performing my magic until it is fully cooked. |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Dana: yes, I suppose any form of deception can lead to a minimal twinge of guilt - and, yes, I guess this makes it harder to be a magician.
As I've said above, one of the key ingredients for being a magician is a trickster spirit - a joy in conning, tricking, fooling, scamming and putting one over others. Most people have that, whilst also recognising that outside of magic such things can often be harmful or immoral. Con artists are romanticised yet also despised. I think that that awareness of the dark side of 'fooling' doesn't, for some, ever completely go away even when doing so purely for entertainment. Perhaps I realise on some level that my motivations for wanting to do magic are hardly altruistic - I get a power trip from making others the sucker, looking like I can do something others cannot, being privy to secrets they aren't, and maybe that self-awareness bleeds into guilt. Dunno. I should stress, though, that guilt is minor - often dominated by the harder emotion of fear and anxiety. Andy: if it helps you understand my POV, I generally see reality TV -and most other media- as manipulative, unreal and immoral. . Adverts being the worst! |
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RedHatMagic Loyal user UK 239 Posts |
Quote:
On May 8, 2017, danaruns wrote: why say anything? They can see you put it in the deck.
Let the Entertainment Commence!
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
To be fair, it was just an example of the kind of things magicians say (or do) whereby we require the spectator to believe something that isn't actually true (and we need other times to obfuscate the truth) - I'm sure you can think of many better examples
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Andy Young Special user Jersey Shore, PA 813 Posts |
Quote:
On May 9, 2017, RedHatMagic wrote: I find before the revel of a card sometimes summing up what happened helps heighten an effect. |
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danaruns Special user The City of Angels 808 Posts |
Sorry this is long, but I think you'll be glad you read the whole thing.
Quote:
On May 8, 2017, Terrible Wizard wrote: I thank you for opening up about this, as it is really making me think. You have both of my brain cells awake, and that almost never happens. I don't think my joy is in conning, tricking, or scamming. In fact, I never do that. But I do love knowing that I'm ahead of them, because at that moment of realization that I'm ahead of them, I know they have a wonderful experience coming. So, I thrill when they agree with me that something happened that didn't, because then I know that they are about to be enriched. One of the great moments in the Chicago Surprise, for instance, is when I place a card on the table face down, and get the audience to agree that it's a particular card, when in fact it is not. You'd probably feel guilt at that moment. I do not. I thrill in anticipation. Right when I get their agreement, I know I've got two moments of astonishment just waiting for them. I enjoy the anticipation of the reveal, and I enjoy their faces and reactions when the reveal comes and they are surprised and amazed. And I don't feel like I'm lying to them or deceiving them, because the most important part of the whole transaction is that we are agreeing to play this game together. There is an inherent honesty to the game. The fact that they are disappointed if we do not fool them is proof of that honesty. "Hey, you promised to fool and amaze me, and you didn't. You suck!" They are expecting to be fooled, and they want to be fooled. When we fool them, they feel good. When we fail to fool them, they feel bad. To my mind, this is a beautiful level of honesty in the bargain between performer and audience. In fact, fooling them in a way that mystifies and entertains enriches their lives. We give them a great gift when we fool them hard enough. We give them something of value, something they need, and something they can take with them after the show. We give them a story. Not the story we tell them, but the story they tell themselves, and that they tell others. We give them a tale of the impossible come to life right before their eyes. A kind of ghost story to tell others, and if we do it right -- through the very deceptive patter and actions that gives rise to guilt in you -- we give them the tools to sell that story when their friends and family inevitably challenge it. "Well, Terrible Wizard must have forced that card on you." "No, because he gave me a free choice. In fact, he offered to let me change my mind and pick a different card. And I did. So he couldn't have forced that card on me. It was truly impossible." People love to have and tell these ghost stories, these tales of the impossible. We are a storytelling species. Without the stories we tell ourselves and others, our lives become dull, and that's why movies, TV, books and plays are such a big part of all our lives. As magicians, we are in the business of giving them a powerful story -- which actually arises inside their own minds! -- that they can recall and replay forever, and which they can share with others in a way that thrills and entertains the others, too. My goal in performing a trick is to have the audience go home and tell this impossible tale to friends, and that those friends enjoy it just as people enjoy sitting around a camp fire listening to a ghost story. And the key -- the key! -- to giving them a good story is to arm them with a defense against challenges to the story by telling them "lies." "No, he couldn't have forced that card on me, because he gave me a free choice, and even let me pick a different card, which I did." We know that when we say it's a free choice, it's not. We know that we are telling them something that is fundamentally untrue. But we are not doing something immoral, we are giving them something they need: that vital ingredient to be able to tell that ghost story to themselves and others. Without that harmless deception, the story isn't so compelling, and it falls apart. "Well, Terrible Wizard must have forced that card on you." "Oh, yeah. I guess you're right." How disappointing! At that point the spectator feels cheated! Not when we fool him, but when we fail to give him the "lie" that is the defense to the truth (that we did, of course, force the card on him). What's important is not what we say to him during our act, but what we leave him with. Our job is to leave him with that tale of the impossible that he can recall, and thrill to, and tell to others, and defend. So we are ethically obligated to 'lie' to him, and to lie hard and well. Our duty to this spectator goes way beyond the end of the trick, or the end of our act. We fulfill our duty to the spectator only when he goes home and tells the story of this impossible thing that happened, and is able to defend it. The falsehoods we tell him give life and joy to that story which can last the rest of his life. This isn't dishonesty, this is a gift. Doing our job well enough to give them their ghost story that they can defend makes their lives richer. But in order to give them that gift, we must cut off every road they have to the solution to the puzzle. If we leave one of those roads open, we have done them a disservice. We have failed to give them that impenetrable story of the impossible come to life before their eyes. We leave them only with a lame story of trickery and deceit. And in so doing, we let them down. The feeling of guilt should be in not having a strong enough or well thought out enough act that closes every door to the possible and leaves them only with the impossible. At the end, they must know that what they saw cannot possibly have happened, but that there is simply no other explanation for it. The "lie" leads to an enduring mystery that has value. We tell them they had a free choice when they didn't, (the lie), and through our careful work we get them to agree to the depths of their soul that they had a free choice because nothing else is possible (the deceit). If we fail to do this, they feel disappointed. That's where the guilt should come in: from failing to do your job well enough. You're not living up to your end of the deal if you don't deceive them and shut all the doors to reality, leaving them with the impossible as the only possible explanation and thus an experience of present and future value for them. This is what they want from you. This is what you promise them. Don't feel bad about giving them exactly what they seek, what they need, and what they have agreed that you will give them. When you tell a ghost story, you don't feel guilty if you don't remind them that ghosts aren't real. That would spoil the story! The guilt should be in spoiling the story, not in telling it well.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
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Mr. Woolery Inner circle Fairbanks, AK 2149 Posts |
Slight tangent, on performing for other magicians... Magic is one of three main hobbies for me. Another is playing bagpipes. There's an interesting phenomenon that pipers go through as they learn. At some point, we have the technical chops that we stop enjoying the performances of other pipers. "He crushed that doubling, she plays her birls too open." That sort of thing. We listen to a performance for the technical skill of the player, not for the experience of the journey music can take us on. Then, out of nowhere, we hear a piper of mediocre technical skill play a piece and we are struck by how musical it is. And we find ourselves loving the sound of the pipes again. We listen to the novice pipers so we can hear how they approach interpretation, not just how crisply they pop out the ornaments. And we applaud more enthusiastically than their family members when that very slight difference between the notes on the paper and the notes that are played brings out the music well.
Not all pipers reach that point. I actually recall the particular piece that did it for me. Desperate Battle. The piper was a true novice, his pipes were a little out of tune, his ornaments were sort of stumbling, and the emotion of the music hit me like a hammer. I was competing against him and knew that my playing was "better," but I also knew he should beat me that night. Turns out neither of us took a ribbon, but he made better music than I did that evening. In magic, I think too many people learn some secrets and think they know "how it is done" and are smugly superior when they can explain the performance they watch. I suspect it is my musical life that makes me want to watch a magic performance for the enjoyment of how the performer puts it all together, not to look for the methods. I'm a good audience member for magic because I love a good performance, even if I think I have better technical chops. If you are good to your audience and have fun, I will enjoy it. In terms of guilt, yeah, lots of us have it for a while. Some longer than others. Work on the moves. Concentrate on the payoff. That's what Dana is saying. Although she is getting deeper than I am. You are going to give a moment of beauty or wonder or silliness. All are great. All make life better. But if you feel bad about setting up the moment, it is like me grimacing or frowning whenever I don't feel my ornaments were as clean or as precise as they could have been. That hesitation then makes the rest of my playing stiff and less musical. Which means when you feel that moment of guilt as you say something that is misleading, or when you do something sneaky with a card/ball/coin/whatever, you are going to make the rest of the performance less than it should be. When you can see it as a story you are telling with your hands, those moments when something is a little stiff can be ignored because it is just like the way that a good storyteller might say "um" or cough in the narrative and nobody recalls it because the performer's attention is still on the result, not on the little details. Tell the story of a vanishing coin or a teleporting card. Tell it with action, not words. TW, we all believe you can do it. As soon as you believe it, you need to change your user name and ditch the current adjective. -Patrick |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Danaruns: thank you for the effort and thought that went into your post, there's certainly much to consider there
One response I would make is that the feelings of pleasant anticipation at their joyful suprise and the thing of guilt at the necessary deception required to work that suprise are not mutually exclusive - I have both! And the motivation to offer the gift of magic, and the motivation to fool the pants off someone, are not mutually exclusive either - I have both, and many more besides! None of these things are either/or situations, and magicians of all people should be aware of what contradictory and paradoxical creatures we humans are. Another response is that I'm genuinely shocked that you don't have a desire to fool others, or have some part of you that wants to be superior to them or view them as suckers. It seems to me that a lot of magicians do have that streak within them; I certainly do. Maybe that's where the guilt cones in? Dunno. But thanks again for your thoughtful post |
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Terrible Wizard Inner circle 1973 Posts |
Patrick: I love the description of magic as storytelling with your hands. Thank you for a good post.
This thread is sure making me think |
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Andy Young Special user Jersey Shore, PA 813 Posts |
Quote:
On May 9, 2017, Terrible Wizard wrote: There are quite a few people that seem to want to sucker the audience. Even "sucker" effects that I do I don't do a sucker premise. I like to let people win or do the phrasing "I don't know what you would say, but I thought that the card was here" basically making myself look like the fool. |
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danaruns Special user The City of Angels 808 Posts |
Quote:
On May 9, 2017, Terrible Wizard wrote: Wow. I absolutely do NOT want to feel "superior" or view them as "suckers." To my mind, that's one of the big problems with magic. To me, and to many female magicians, we view it not as an adversarial relationship, but as a conspiratorial one. We work TOGETHER with the audience, not trying to beat them. But then, women are more nurturing and conspiratorial by nature, and men are more given to dominance and ego and winning, so perhaps those gender roles have something to do with why I feel so differently. But I'd suggest that viewing magic as a conspiratorial endeavor WITH the audience is one that leads to a lot less guilt, because it's a joint enterprise.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
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