So here's the thing, I think I'm just bad at magic.

I mean I have been practising at some sleights for years - doing everything I'm 'supposed' to do (reading, adjusting, mirror work, etc), and yet still I'm not very good at them. And these aren't advanced sleights, they're basic stuff that others claim on this site and elsewhere to get in just a few weeks, or even less.

So why do I struggle so much with things that everyone else gets so quickly and easily?

What am I missing?

Is it that there really is something called innate talent that you either have or do not have?

I think everyone feels like that sometimes; I know I do, and not just about magic. For me, there's usually a few things it could be, and a few things I can do to address it.

First of all, it could just be burn-out. Focusing too much on any one thing can just drain you, however passionate you are about it. For example, I can practice something for a week and keep getting better, then the next week, make no progress, or even feel like I'm regressing, which can make me frustrated, which makes me worse, which makes me frustrated, etc. I've had this happen to me doing everything from rock climbing, to music, to Dark Souls. The best thing to do I find is to take a step back, or at least a step in a different direction; if I'm struggling with the speed of something, practice something more about feel, or got the other way and slow it down as much as you can and focus on the mechanics.

The other big one is find other people and just jam stuff to enjoy it. It's important to interact with other people doing the same stuff as you, as they can share their approaches with you, even unconsciously, and you'd be surprised how much approaching something slightly differently can change that feeling. I guess that's related to the burn-out thing above. they can also give you advice, which might be the key piece needed for you to get what you're working on.
If nothing else, hanging out with other people can remind you that other people struggle with things, even if they're different from what you're struggling with.

On top of that, remember that, particularly in the internet, the vocal participators are very much in minority and not representative of the whole situation. I mean, if you judged everyone on the YouTube comment section, you'd think a nuclear apocalypse is just what we need. Everyone has stuff they struggle with, whether they talk about it or not.

On the topic of 'innate talent', I have this theory that creativity and talent, are effectively just the result of your way of thinking. So, yes, since different people think differently, they may be creative or skilled in a way you are not, but that doesn't mean you can't learn a skill, as long as you're willing to either apply your thought process to the field, or adapt a new way of thinking. The hard part is in understanding; it's very easy to follow a train of thought after the fact, but gaining true understanding of how and why they did something a particular way is much harder. They might have an innate reasoning behind it, but might not be able to explain it, so you need to work out why what they did works, and then apply that in your work. At first it will be an uphill struggle to consciously think about all those small details which just appear to flow in the 'correct' hands, but soon you won't have to do that, and your thought processes may even be expanded on a wider scope, as you've learned a new way of thinking.
I know this is what I've been doing in my photography in the past few years, and I can see it in my other work as well. Part of that may be the thought and rationalising I've applied to this process, but a good deal of it is focusing on the details and building up the whole as my understanding deepens.

Last but not least, if you really feel like you can't do it any more, reach out. Maybe to people you know personally, who I'm sure will prove to you that it's not as bad as all that, maybe to others in the community to start a weekly session or something, as per the last couple of points.

Thanks for the input, cool stuff.

My only real contact with others is on this forum, though, so jamming is pretty tricky, lol

We're all limited in dexterity. Not every guitar player will be able to shred like Stevie Vai. But some guitarists will be at that level in a year. Of course practice has a lot to do with it. But so does genetics. I have a friend who has been playing fiddle for nearly 50 years. His timing still isn't very good.

It is important to practice sleights properly. For that, a good teacher would be a great asset. Don't develop bad habits. They're hard to break.

Get a good teacher to check out what you're doing and help you evaluate how to proceed. If you find that you're unable to perform certain sleights deceptively, you'll have to not use them. You'll be able to find plenty of material that's very good at all levels. So you'll be able to be a magician. You just might not be able to do certain things.

Mike

Terrible wizard fear not. I assure most 'magicians' here talk the talk but very few have walked the walked.

I know a couple of posters here whom give 'expert'advice all the time but OMG....I've seen them try and perform....and it is dreadful.

It's not just magic, but most other ventures. The internet is a great means/place to give the impression you know....most just recite things they read.

Having said that, there is the odd person here who really knows what they are talking about. Separating the wannabes from those with real skills is a problem.

If you can find someone to sit down with live../that's the best. Magic clubs are unfortunately a very hit and miss as most workers have progressed beyond them and avoid.

Just hang in there and keep practicing and enjoy what you are doing. Noboby has got there quickly and easily.

PS. Try not to waste your time jumping all over with the latest and greatest tricks/sleights. Pick something...stick with it...and eventually it will suddenly start to blossom

Cheers for the input folks. It's encouraging

To give a concrete example of what I mean - it's taken me about seven years to be able to do a passable DL, and even now I miss about 25% of the time, more if I'm nervous. And that's after hundreds of hours of practice. Same with, well, pretty much every sleight - even a simple shuffle! It takes me ages to get something, and it's never really good enough nor totally reliable. Yet many others talk about getting a DL or other things in weeks!

I think I'm magically abnormal, lol

Yeah, teachers and mentors and clubs aren't going to happen ... Shame. I need to stop being so isolated one day.

I've been doing magic for 6/7 years, and I also don't have a DL I'm happy with; either they're really obvious I'm doing something strange, or I can't always get it. At this point, I've kind of just told myself that when I've got this second deal down, I can use the double push off for a DL. Not going to happen soon, but I don't actually need a DL atm, so screw it.

I think it's far more important to satisfy yourself that you're doing it properly than lower your (and your audiences) standards. I've seen so many professionals do moves I wouldn't do for parent's cats; if you care about what you do, and not just impressing people, you owe it to yourself, if not spectators, to do it properly.

Yeah . It's weird ... I've also seen pro's who suck. I don't get that? Do they not know? .

Anyway ... I'll just keep plugging away.

I guess we can either educate the audience with better magic, or educate the magicians to want to be better. Frankly, I suspect the audience are better learners...

" Stop worrying about not being good enough today. Be happy about knowing that you will be better tomorrow"
Everyone has days when you feel you are not good enough

I find there is a critical mass where you've achieved a certain level of proficiency with a move and it doesn't improve until you:

1. Dissect it to the point of understanding the role of every digit
2. Compare the illusion you're trying to create to the real thing and try to bridge the gap
3. Just put in the reps

My biggest breakthrough in sleight of hand was learning to Bottom Deal. When you're about to embark on this journey, you will hear people telling you things like:

"It's the hardest move in card magic!"
"It'll take you years!"

Approaching something with the attitude of not expecting instant or even short term gratification is how you really grow with sleight of hand in my opinion. If you approached the Elmsley Count with someone telling you "It's the hardest false count to do well, it'll take years to make those look like just four cards!" and you understood the role of every digit, examined how it looks to just count four cards and put the reps in, you would have an excellent Elmsley Count.

If you approach every practise session with one key thing you're trying to improve, it will come bit by bit.

Maybe cards aren't your thing.

There are many forms of Magic. Think about what excites you about Magic and explore if another form of Magic might be more to your liking or attainable skill set.

I have practiced some things in Magic for decades that have just not worked out. You can let that kind of thing go or just practice it because you enjoy the challenge. Your call.

But it is important to remember that there are some amazing card tricks that are not slight heavy (or have no slights at all). There are many types of Magic and slights are only one tool in the box .

Try some easy fun stuff.

-Mary Mowder

Terrible Wizard...could you film and upload a vid on youtube to show us perhaps. You're anonymous so just show below the neck if you feel uncomfortable.

Do your double lift, shuffles etc, and perhaps we can give some direction.

You find a lot of people here willing to help. And it's free

Make some videos and share. You are probably cleaner than you think. It's also good to consider working an effect using the simplest method you know. I find that many knuckle busting moves can be substituted with more direct moves and misdirection.

I'm horrible at passes. My best pass works like this: "HEY! What was THAT over there!?"

So I don't depend on them... And I only do it on off beat moments built in to the presentation.

As for not having a decent double lift...(Q) By who's standards? (Q)Are you a perfectionist who "sees it" in the mirror or on video (if taping yourself) and judging it? (A) Stop being so hard on yourself. (Q)Are laypersons you perform for calling you out? (A)They think that a lot. Possibly it is the only "move" they have ever heard of so they suspect it. It is like accusing you of using a marked deck.

The reason I say this is because - in the real world, you don't need a perfect double lift. (I know this will be a controversial statement but argue the merits in your own thread.) Many "working pro's" and non pro's who perform a lot will tell you. "You wouldn't believe what you can get by with when performing for most spectators" Therefore, you might just be being harder on yourself than you really need to.

As far as Teachers, there are inexpensive ongoing learning communities like Aaron Fisher's that is less than $40.00 a month and Jay Sankey has an online school of some sort that is also reasonable. I have never seen any of Jay's "school stuff" but I would have to say it is solid stuff. I have purchased a couple of Aaron Fisher's Online lectures / video classes that I have been quite happy with. There are also some "Totally Working Pros" who do one on one Skype lessons anywhere from $75/hr, $150/hr up to $250. I know I cannot afford these but some of these guys are "big names" in magic.

There are also plenty of folks here who would take time to do some one on one help / advice with you over Skype, or social media that allows live video. I met a very good magician here on the Café who is from Argentina (I am in Ohio, USA) and we became friends off the Café and chat thru FB Messenger and Skype. He was actually invited (and attended) FFFF this year. Considering what an honor that is, I am happy he can share some hints to me (and myself to him). The point is, there are magicians on about every level who are willing to help thanks to the internet. Pure isolation just doesn't exist unless you want it to. There are no working magicians in my area. I have to drive a little over an hour once a month (if I am feeling up to it due to my health) to attend a "magic club" meeting where most of the members are hobbyists and / or retired. Only a couple still perform but it is still nice to get together and share stories and ideas in a non-internet setting.

Nerves just take actual performances, over and over, for real people, in order to grow in that area. There is nothing but time that takes care of that. The "look of nervousness" might never go away. I believe Michael Skinner had shaky hands throughout his career due to a side effect of a medication he was on for a chronic condition.

Mary also brought up an interesting point. Why put so much concentration into card magic? Do you do other types? Coins, rubber bands, rope, mentalism, parlor effects, cups and balls...? Mix it up a bit when you become frustrated and often times when you come back (a few days later) to what you were working on, it just "clicks".

Great thoughts from everyone. We don't have all the facts but perhaps its time for a reset. Stand back and see if perhaps you are trying to learn too many things. Like reading 10 books at a time...you make progress but its hard to tell.
GreenKnight

Loads of cool input - thanks

Regarding videos - no, because of three things: I don't have the equipment; my tattoos would give me away; I'd be too embarrassed. . But mostly the first one. Same goes for Skype etc. Which I hate anyway, especially since I like to remain anon because of my work.

Regarding cards not being my thing, that may be true - but I have the same problem with all props, lol . If you think I'm bad at cards you should see me with coins, lol.

Regarding my stuff maybe better than I think - well, it's possible. Yes, it sometimes flies in reality - but sometimes it doesn't. When it works it works fine, but like I said it only works for about 75% of the time. This includes every move I do, not just the DL.

Regarding online tutoring it's just too expensive for me at the moment, though I've certainly thought about it. There's no magicians near enough to me for me to get to (I live in a rural area and am reliant on public transport, and have no time thanks to work. I've never actually met another magic hobbyist, or anyone else for that matter - I have zero social life!)

Regarding getting over nerves - yes, it takes loads of performances! But not just that, it takes loads of performances where things go well. Given that I screw up a lot I often find that performing lessens my confidence rather than building it! Also, being an amatuer with a full-time job gives me not a lot of opportunity to find new audiences. Not really sure how to solve that typical non-pro dilemma

Anyway, thanks for the advice and encouragement folks . I'm still plugging away.

To help me put this in context, how long did it take you lot to be able to do a consistent/decent DL? Or overhand shuffle control?

Also, the question about innate talent wasn't rhetorical - do people actually think this thing called talent exists? I think I do.

In regards to your frustration regarding card sleights such as the DL. There are many ways to execute. Jay Sankey in many of his
teaching videos uses a get-ready technique as opposed to the traditional. Larry Jennings developed his snap double. I perform quite allot weekly and have been for years and still don't execute flawlessly. BUT the focus of my performances are not on a particular move or sleight. There is so much more going on in the context of the routine.

Look up Richard Sanders' routine Mr. Stickman. It uses the DL many times and the KM move. If you learned this routine as a whole I think the rhythm and timing might help. In the context of a routine is imo the key. It is more fun and has purpose as opposed to just learning a particular sleight in and of itself hours on end. There should be an ends to a mean.
FWIW.
Make it FUN!!!

Absolutely there is.

Terrible Wizrd....then I think the answer is simple...Self Working Card Magic.

One of the best resources for this is often your local Library...793.1 methinks.

And make no mistake, self-working magic can be VERY strong.

Paul Daniels, in an interview, said his preferred card trick, was (i can't remember the name) where the spectator shuffles and deals the deck into 4 piles and ends up with an ace on top of each pile. The trick is self working and I can attest how strong it is.