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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » SansMinds Magic » » Will Tsai - AGT. Mind=Blown (119 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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SimonCard
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This is stage illusion not close up magic. It is similar to Copperfield' stage illusion in essence.
mavericklancer
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Quote:
Now search YouTube for a slo-mo version of his AGT coin effect. Ain't no table gimmack THAT fast.

Quote:
Then there's watching an effect and knowing thru experience and COMMON SENSE, that it would be PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to do.


I'm more of a lurker these days, but I felt that I could offer some insight that I haven't seen these past 10 pages. As an automation and robotics engineer, I've come across many ways to make something move very fast. So fast that it wouldn't be caught by the relatively snail-like frame rate of a youtube video made from copying a television stream. To show that, let's take one of the simplest of those ways... a pulley system.

Some back of the envelope calculations... Ignore this part and skip to the bottom for the TL;DR version.

Quote:
Let's assume we have a system with two pulleys (small and large) that ideally have no slip

d_small = 1.0"
d_large = 3.0"

A quick eyeball of with my own pulley system next to me shows a "quick tug" with my hand is about 10"/sec. Converting that to rotational speed of the small pulley:
RPM_small = 10"/sec x 1 rev/(pi*1.0") x 60sec/minute = 190.9 rpm

If the small pulley is turning at 190.9 rpm, the large pulley is turning at a higher velocity at a 3:1 ratio:
RPM_large = 572.9 rpm

The surface velocity of this large pulley is found:
Velocity_large = 572.9 rev/min x (1 min/60 sec) x (pi*3.0")/rev = 90"/sec


The standard television/film frame rate is 24 - 30 frames per second. Assuming 30 fps, we can theoretically move something an entire 3" invisibly on film. Using only my hand and some pulleys. Using a motor turning 2400rpm, I could go exponentially faster and move "invisibly" exponentially farther. Just because something looks "IMPOSSIBLE" doesn't mean it is.

We see tons of things on a daily basis that move faster than our eyes can follow. Look at the wheel of a cruising bicycle. Chances are, the spokes are moving faster than you can see.

------------------

A few observations to consider when thinking about "camera tricks":

1) That table obviously isn't black just because it looks nice
2) That plant and those vines aren't there just because Will thought the set needed some extra greenery
3) The faster the productions come, the more the table shakes
4) Just because something looks like a petal or a coin doesn't mean it's not gaffed in some way
5) Just because you see 4 coins doesn't mean there are only 4 coins

---------

Even if we assume that the entire series was automated through a series of motors and programmed routines, he'd have to be absolutely flawless in this performance timing. Given the speed of the effect, I'd liken it to a perfectly executed dance routine.
JonathanW
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Quote:
On Jun 20, 2017, mavericklancer wrote:
Quote:
Now search YouTube for a slo-mo version of his AGT coin effect. Ain't no table gimmack THAT fast.

Quote:
Then there's watching an effect and knowing thru experience and COMMON SENSE, that it would be PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to do.


I'm more of a lurker these days, but I felt that I could offer some insight that I haven't seen these past 10 pages. As an automation and robotics engineer, I've come across many ways to make something move very fast. So fast that it wouldn't be caught by the relatively snail-like frame rate of a youtube video made from copying a television stream. To show that, let's take one of the simplest of those ways... a pulley system.

Some back of the envelope calculations... Ignore this part and skip to the bottom for the TL;DR version.

Quote:
Let's assume we have a system with two pulleys (small and large) that ideally have no slip

d_small = 1.0"
d_large = 3.0"

A quick eyeball of with my own pulley system next to me shows a "quick tug" with my hand is about 10"/sec. Converting that to rotational speed of the small pulley:
RPM_small = 10"/sec x 1 rev/(pi*1.0") x 60sec/minute = 190.9 rpm

If the small pulley is turning at 190.9 rpm, the large pulley is turning at a higher velocity at a 3:1 ratio:
RPM_large = 572.9 rpm

The surface velocity of this large pulley is found:
Velocity_large = 572.9 rev/min x (1 min/60 sec) x (pi*3.0")/rev = 90"/sec


The standard television/film frame rate is 24 - 30 frames per second. Assuming 30 fps, we can theoretically move something an entire 3" invisibly on film. Using only my hand and some pulleys. Using a motor turning 2400rpm, I could go exponentially faster and move "invisibly" exponentially farther. Just because something looks "IMPOSSIBLE" doesn't mean it is.

We see tons of things on a daily basis that move faster than our eyes can follow. Look at the wheel of a cruising bicycle. Chances are, the spokes are moving faster than you can see.

------------------

A few observations to consider when thinking about "camera tricks":

1) That table obviously isn't black just because it looks nice
2) That plant and those vines aren't there just because Will thought the set needed some extra greenery
3) The faster the productions come, the more the table shakes
4) Just because something looks like a petal or a coin doesn't mean it's not gaffed in some way
5) Just because you see 4 coins doesn't mean there are only 4 coins

---------

Even if we assume that the entire series was automated through a series of motors and programmed routines, he'd have to be absolutely flawless in this performance timing. Given the speed of the effect, I'd liken it to a perfectly executed dance routine.



We need a thumbs up 100 times for this post! Though too bad half the magicians will keep crying camera tricks! -_-
TStone
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Quote:
On Jun 19, 2017, themagician8 wrote:
Then please, "enlighten" me...
How DOES in your opinion, Will Tsai changeand rearrange those coins with no cover.

Are you trolling?
Why should anyone but Will Tsai publish Will Tsai's work?
If you are so poorly read that you can't get the broad strokes of the work in question, it is surely not the responsibility of anyone here to educate you, and certainly not by stealing material.
It would by silly to a self-destructive degree to use camera tricks in a piece that doesn't require it.
themagician8
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Trolling? I was asking a bigger question than how Tsai did his coin routine. As a matter of fact, I never asked.
Ado
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Quote:
On Jun 19, 2017, themagician8 wrote:
Then please, "enlighten" me...
How DOES in your opinion, Will Tsai changeand rearrange those coins with no cover.


You seem to be assuming they are the same coins. If they aren't, then there is much, much less motion that needs to happen. Suppose (and I'm not saying that's how it's done) that you had a sort of flipper coin (or a mouse trap). Then you'd need to move only *half* a coin to cover or expose something the size of a whole coin. That isn't much, and that can happen faster than a FPS of a TV camera can record it.

P!
robd
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Classic magic Café thread this. CLASSIC.
Craigers
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Quote:
On Jun 20, 2017, mavericklancer wrote:
Quote:
Now search YouTube for a slo-mo version of his AGT coin effect. Ain't no table gimmack THAT fast.

Quote:
Then there's watching an effect and knowing thru experience and COMMON SENSE, that it would be PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to do.


I'm more of a lurker these days, but I felt that I could offer some insight that I haven't seen these past 10 pages. As an automation and robotics engineer, I've come across many ways to make something move very fast. So fast that it wouldn't be caught by the relatively snail-like frame rate of a youtube video made from copying a television stream. To show that, let's take one of the simplest of those ways... a pulley system.

Some back of the envelope calculations... Ignore this part and skip to the bottom for the TL;DR version.

Quote:
Let's assume we have a system with two pulleys (small and large) that ideally have no slip

d_small = 1.0"
d_large = 3.0"

A quick eyeball of with my own pulley system next to me shows a "quick tug" with my hand is about 10"/sec. Converting that to rotational speed of the small pulley:
RPM_small = 10"/sec x 1 rev/(pi*1.0") x 60sec/minute = 190.9 rpm

If the small pulley is turning at 190.9 rpm, the large pulley is turning at a higher velocity at a 3:1 ratio:
RPM_large = 572.9 rpm

The surface velocity of this large pulley is found:
Velocity_large = 572.9 rev/min x (1 min/60 sec) x (pi*3.0")/rev = 90"/sec


The standard television/film frame rate is 24 - 30 frames per second. Assuming 30 fps, we can theoretically move something an entire 3" invisibly on film. Using only my hand and some pulleys. Using a motor turning 2400rpm, I could go exponentially faster and move "invisibly" exponentially farther. Just because something looks "IMPOSSIBLE" doesn't mean it is.

We see tons of things on a daily basis that move faster than our eyes can follow. Look at the wheel of a cruising bicycle. Chances are, the spokes are moving faster than you can see.

------------------

A few observations to consider when thinking about "camera tricks":

1) That table obviously isn't black just because it looks nice
2) That plant and those vines aren't there just because Will thought the set needed some extra greenery
3) The faster the productions come, the more the table shakes
4) Just because something looks like a petal or a coin doesn't mean it's not gaffed in some way
5) Just because you see 4 coins doesn't mean there are only 4 coins

---------

Even if we assume that the entire series was automated through a series of motors and programmed routines, he'd have to be absolutely flawless in this performance timing. Given the speed of the effect, I'd liken it to a perfectly executed dance routine.


This must be post of the year on the Forum
SimonCard
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I just saw a video of this effect being completely recreated. Not sure if the method is the same, but the effect is exactly the same.
robd
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"A quick eyeball of with my own pulley system next to me shows a "quick tug" with my hand is about 10"/sec"
orchid666
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I can't even believe this thread has gone so far! Mostly, I love the comments about 'Not being qualified to be a magician'!!! Since when was there a qualification for magic!!!???

To be honest, I have never been a fan of SansMinds or some of Will Tsai's past behaviour,and have never bought an S.M item for that reason, BUT.. I did enjoy Wills routine and was very entertained by it.
The method really does not matter, but I'm surprised by the pulleys, gears etc guessing game! It sounds like a layman desperatly making ridiculous guesses coz they feel like they've been made to look small in front of their friends on a night out!!!!!!
I'm not familiar with some of the names on this thread that are bickering the most. Please tell me they're not working proffesionals with a jealous streak?1
Hmmmmmm
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Orchid666 wrote:

Quote:
...It sounds like a layman desperatly making ridiculous guesses coz they feel like they've been made to look small in front of their friends on a night out!!!!!!
I'm not familiar with some of the names on this thread that are bickering the most. Please tell me they're not working proffesionals with a jealous streak?1


themagician8 created a side discussion with his accusation that there was camera trickery. He's pretty much alone but this caused some people to try to hint or explain to him some viable methods.

All of that is quite apart from the discussion about whether or not he should have shown the coins moving with no cover.

It's odd that some people on this thread seem to think the only valid reaction to Will Tsai's performance is "That was great". Anything else results in insinuations of jealousy etc.

David Blain and Chris Angel have been enormously successful on TV. Does that mean critical comments about what they do are always the result of jealousy or some such thing?

(My position is that some critical comments are valid and some aren't. They should be discussed on their merit and not lumped together. It would help if people actually quoted the comments they are commenting on rather than making broad ad hoc statements)
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mavericklancer
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Quote:
On Jun 26, 2017, robd wrote:
"A quick eyeball of with my own pulley system next to me shows a "quick tug" with my hand is about 10"/sec"


I'm an engineer. My current project uses a pulley and belt system with an integrated linear encoder. Those black ribbons on the left side are magnetic tape scales for the encoders. See image below. I was able to give a "quick tug" with my hand a few times and the instantaneous velocity readouts were around 10"/sec.

Do you have something interesting on this point to contribute, or were you trying to be facetious?

Edit: A Café user has kindly PM'd me, telling me that any image I post will be subject to someone saying that I pulled it off of google. Here's an image with me and the pulley system.

Image


Click here to view attached image.
natmagic
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The routine looks awesome.
The audience loved it as did the judges
This can't be overlooked from an entertainment perspective.

Will Tsai unfortunately, can be replaced by anyone who has rehearsed with the table.
I am in two minds if this is good or bad for magic long term.

Same discussion can be raised on the majority of pre recorded TV magic relying on the medium and its processes to create the impossible. Non of which can be re-created live. Its sadly a much easier route for any face that fits to become a magician winging it on camera these days.

This routine is just 'one' heavily gimmicked routine, the bar is now set so high visually, I believe he would struggle to present a sleight of hand routine to compete with this cgi style magic without more heavily gimmicked items doing the majority of the work.



Interested to see what he does next.
Doug Trouten
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The idea that Will can be replaced by anyone who rehearsed with his props is interesting. Could the same not be said about much of what passes for stage illusion today? So often what we see is the "magician" gesturing theatrically while assistants and props create the effect. David Copperfield didn't stick the Statue of Liberty up his sleeve. From some of the comments on this thread, you'd think AGT was a sleight of hand contest. Will's job was to entertain the audience and get enough judge's votes to move on to the next round. Mission accomplished.
It's still magic even if you know how it's done.
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Quote:
On Jun 26, 2017, mavericklancer wrote:
Quote:
On Jun 26, 2017, robd wrote:
"A quick eyeball of with my own pulley system next to me shows a "quick tug" with my hand is about 10"/sec"


I'm an engineer. My current project uses a pulley and belt system with an integrated linear encoder. Those black ribbons on the left side are magnetic tape scales for the encoders. See image below. I was able to give a "quick tug" with my hand a few times and the instantaneous velocity readouts were around 10"/sec.

Do you have something interesting on this point to contribute, or were you trying to be facetious?

Edit: A Café user has kindly PM'd me, telling me that any image I post will be subject to someone saying that I pulled it off of google. Here's an image with me and the pulley system.

Image


Image
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Ceierry
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Still a trick tho' ..
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natmagic
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Quote:
On Jun 29, 2017, Doug Trouten wrote:
The idea that Will can be replaced by anyone who rehearsed with his props is interesting. Could the same not be said about much of what passes for stage illusion today? So often what we see is the "magician" gesturing theatrically while assistants and props create the effect. David Copperfield didn't stick the Statue of Liberty up his sleeve. From some of the comments on this thread, you'd think AGT was a sleight of hand contest. Will's job was to entertain the audience and get enough judge's votes to move on to the next round. Mission accomplished.



Yes essentially true, that is why I believe a balance is needed to present a performer to an audience as a fully rounded artist. Nothing against 'machines and gimmicks' to assist magic, I just feel it shouldn't be the front runner of choices because its the easiest route.
David Copperfield may use 'equipment' to assist him but his presentations are thought out and rehearsed to the finest detail. He also demonstrates obvious skill to his audiences to balance the 'props' as such by including more skillful material. For example Grandpas aces, mislead etc etc.

I'm not a fan of the hand waving performers either, they appear to be one step away from Airport ground staff to me Smile
Doug Trouten
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I like the "airport ground staff" comparison! The new season of "Masters of Illusion" starts airing tomorrow, and they always have an act or two where the magician could easily be pictured holding a couple of those signal flashlights.
It's still magic even if you know how it's done.
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Found this about Will's performance on Youtube.

https://youtu.be/_dSp_f0f9gE
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