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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Marijuana Decriminalization Leads to Violence...Reduction (7 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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NYCTwister
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Quote:
On Jul 12, 2017, rockwall wrote:
Http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/279630.php

I lost my 37 year old son this year. He hid his illness quite well and in every other way seemed to be a happy, well-adjusted successful adult. Of all my kids, he was the one that seemed to be the most 'together' and had the strongest will. He had been a high school wrestling star, put together his own kids wrestling team in Florida and had just returned from Kuwait. Turns out he was a heavy marijuana user and had had some severe paranoia issues. I strongly believe this contributed to the problems that caused him to take his life.


Sorry, I thought you were quoting from the article. I didn't realize you were conveying a personal story.

My sincere condolences. I've lost two people to suicide, it just leaves you empty.
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LobowolfXXX
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On Jul 12, 2017, rockwall wrote:
Http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/279630.php

I lost my 37 year old son this year. He hid his illness quite well and in every other way seemed to be a happy, well-adjusted successful adult. Of all my kids, he was the one that seemed to be the most 'together' and had the strongest will. He had been a high school wrestling star, put together his own kids wrestling team in Florida and had just returned from Kuwait. Turns out he was a heavy marijuana user and had had some severe paranoia issues. I strongly believe this contributed to the problems that caused him to take his life.


Really, really sorry for your loss.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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On Jul 12, 2017, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 12, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
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On Jul 11, 2017, acesover wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 11, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 11, 2017, acesover wrote:
So in effect, if I am to understand your response to my post, you feel that favoring something that causes harm is ok, as long as we pass a law making it legal. OK gotcha. We just see things differently.


The idea that I intended to convey was, most simply, that not everything that is harmful should be illegal.


LOL ... As I said we see things differently. However I am not going to directly respond to that slippery slope response of yours. Good one.


It's not a slippery slope response; in characterizing the discussion until now, you said, "..if one feels that it causes no harm and is fine..." I'm simply point out that to me, and for most people, saying that you think something should be legal is not the same as saying that it causes no harm and is fine. It's a very straightforward position; quite literally, the only possible disagreement with it is to take the position that everything that causes harm should be illegal.


Again I am not taking the bait for this argument. I am sure aspirin causes harm. I am just not going there with you as I know where this discussion will go.


It's not bait; it's illustration. I doubt there's anyone here who would take the absurd position that anything that causes harm should be illegal. You know it, and I know it. So when someone says that he or she thinks that marijuana should be legal, don't deliberately misstate that person's position to be that marijuana "causes no harm and is fine."
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
tommy
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Marijuana will be made legal whether we like it or not. It will be interesting to see how it affects various things. The price of it, for example: will it be taxed as much as tobacco and booze? If one can grow marijuana then can one grow tobacco, distill whisky and buy and sell and on? Will only the select few have a licence to do so?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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rockwall
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And here it begins.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/......emeanor/

"Oregon Bill to Make Heroin, Cocaine Possession a Misdemeanor"
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Isn't the camel nose under the tent the plan always? We keep hearing how slippery slope arguments don't make sense yet again and again they keep happening.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
LobowolfXXX
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It's worth considering whether criminalization is for the protection of the drug user (or the would-be drug user), or for society. Or,if both, is it 50-50, or what is the extent?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
rockwall
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Are you in favor of decriminalization of all drugs, Lobo?
tommy
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Buy stock in Schering-Plough.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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On Jul 17, 2017, rockwall wrote:
Are you in favor of decriminalization of all drugs, Lobo?


No, I'm not.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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They will be whether you agree or not.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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On Jul 17, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 17, 2017, rockwall wrote:
Are you in favor of decriminalization of all drugs, Lobo?


No, I'm not.


Why not? Would you think that most libertarians are in favor of decriminalization of all drugs?
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On Jul 19, 2017, rockwall wrote:
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On Jul 17, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
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On Jul 17, 2017, rockwall wrote:
Are you in favor of decriminalization of all drugs, Lobo?


No, I'm not.


Why not? Would you think that most libertarians are in favor of decriminalization of all drugs?


I'm closest in philosophy to what I'd call a small-L libertarian, but I'm not a libertarian.

I'd also think that most conservatives would be in favor of deceiminalization as well, in the grounds of less government intrusion and spending, and the philosophical notion that they apply to gun rights
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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I'm not sure if most libertarians are in favor of legalizing all drugs. I would expect that drugs like PCP which directly, quickly, and pretty much Universally take away the ability for future rational thought might be exempt from their general philosophy, but I honestly don't know.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
rockwall
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I agree that conservatives in general approve of less government intrusion and spending but that obviously doesn't apply to laws against all social ills. I'm not sure I follow your argument in regards to gun rights and drug decriminalization.

I'm guessing the argument for crimilization made by conservatives, (and apparently you), is that it causes too many societal problems. Interestingly, that's also one of the arguments made by the other side for decriminalization. I guess the 64,000 question is, which position causes more societal problems.
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To elaborate on the gun analogy, let's take a friends of mine whom I'll call Jason, since that's his name. Jason is an extremely intelligent guy, doesn't drive stoned, owns his own quote successful business which does well, which is to say, he's not a financial burden on society. We also know that there are people for whom Marijuana causes problems, including fatal problems. As a for instance, I take it as an article of faith that the number of people killed in traffic accidents by stoned drivers will be higher if Marijuana is legal than if it's illegal.

We also know that the number of people killed by guns - peoe who would be alive if guns were illegal - is nonzero. But the typical conservative response would be that a responsible gun owner shouldn't be penalized because some gun owners are irresponsible, or even criminal. If someone leaves his gun lying around and someone is killed in an accident, that's basically collateral damage that's subordinated to the interests of responsible gun owners. And I would expect a similar rationale with respect to drugs - Why should Jason's behavior be criminalized because someone else might get stoned and drive, or lose his job and destroy his family if he has a psychological addiction, or whatever.

Of course, there's a constitutional right to guns that there isn't to marijuana, but I don't believe that it's critical in general to most conservatives' positions; I think they're philosophical libertarians with respect to guns.

For me, as you suggest, it's a balancing act. I have no problem seeing pros and cons to criminalization and legalization. It's not about whether drugs are harmful; IMO, that's a silly way of looking at it. It's about whether criminalization on balance - taking everything that can possibly be considered into account - helps more than it hurts, and by how much? As a libertarianish type, to the extent that it's close, I favor legalization. For criminalization to be preferred, it would have to be better by a lot . And I think the answer is different for different drugs. The biggest problems with criminalization to my mind are financial - cost of enforcement/incarceration and lost tax revenue - the profit to criminal gangs (modern day Capone/prohibition situation), and the autonomy interest for people like Jason. But I'm also not blind to the benefits of criminalization, either.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
NYCTwister
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On Jul 19, 2017, LobowolfXXX wrote:
To elaborate on the gun analogy, let's take a friends of mine whom I'll call Jason, since that's his name. Jason is an extremely intelligent guy, doesn't drive stoned, owns his own quote successful business which does well, which is to say, he's not a financial burden on society. We also know that there are people for whom Marijuana causes problems, including fatal problems. As a for instance, I take it as an article of faith that the number of people killed in traffic accidents by stoned drivers will be higher if Marijuana is legal than if it's illegal.

We also know that the number of people killed by guns - peoe who would be alive if guns were illegal - is nonzero. But the typical conservative response would be that a responsible gun owner shouldn't be penalized because some gun owners are irresponsible, or even criminal. If someone leaves his gun lying around and someone is killed in an accident, that's basically collateral damage that's subordinated to the interests of responsible gun owners. And I would expect a similar rationale with respect to drugs - Why should Jason's behavior be criminalized because someone else might get stoned and drive, or lose his job and destroy his family if he has a psychological addiction, or whatever.

Of course, there's a constitutional right to guns that there isn't to marijuana, but I don't believe that it's critical in general to most conservatives' positions; I think they're philosophical libertarians with respect to guns.

For me, as you suggest, it's a balancing act. I have no problem seeing pros and cons to criminalization and legalization. It's not about whether drugs are harmful; IMO, that's a silly way of looking at it. It's about whether criminalization on balance - taking everything that can possibly be considered into account - helps more than it hurts, and by how much? As a libertarianish type, to the extent that it's close, I favor legalization. For criminalization to be preferred, it would have to be better by a lot . And I think the answer is different for different drugs. The biggest problems with criminalization to my mind are financial - cost of enforcement/incarceration and lost tax revenue - the profit to criminal gangs (modern day Capone/prohibition situation), and the autonomy interest for people like Jason. But I'm also not blind to the benefits of criminalization, either.


Serious question - Do you think the reason it's been criminalized, an is/has been illegal is due to genuine concern for peoples welfare?
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I think different legislators have different reasons, including that one, but certainly not limited to it.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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Is the law politics?
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Of course, there's a constitutional right to guns that there isn't to marijuana, but I don't believe that it's critical in general to most conservatives' positions; I think they're philosophical libertarians with respect to guns.


I agree that the situations are seemingly analogous to a non-trivial degree. But I think the decisive factor is the generally pro-authoritarian bent of many conservatives, despite claims of States' Rights at times.

I think it was sociologist George Lakoff who said that Conservatives tend to identify with the Father position, Liberals with the Mother.

Obviously a gross oversimplification, but not a bad starting point.
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